By the time this comic runs, San Diego Comic-Con will have been over! As I’m writing this, it’s still the Sunday before. Man, if I didn’t score a Zombie Cliffjumper somehow, I’m going to be very put out! Also, if I didn’t consummate my bromance with Joel Watson.
This is the last of my “ripped from Tumblr” filler materials. I got a few emails and comments and tweets and whatnot which begged this response. A few folks were totally on my side, honestly, for reals, who were nonetheless super stoked to volunteer me opinions they didn’t share, but belonged to other people, like maybe their twin brother or something. And that maybe I should know about them, because?
Anyway. I’ll be home soon.
*blink*
I need more RAM to imagine twice that many people.
download more ram?
All the RAMs.
Son, I need you to upgrade me some more 56k’s from the internet. I’ll pay you fifty dollars. Whaddya say?
shit, I was assembled on 87… we didn’t use a lot of RAM then
IN 87, or ON 87?
1987 gets you about 512 ~ 1024 k-RAMs…
x87 gets you … well … huh, who knows. It depends what flavour of x87 we’re talking about. 0, 2, 3, 4? Could be anything from about 128 to 65536 k-RAMs. That’s quite a range there. It’s probably going to come down to just how many kays you can afford. Give me your wallet, I need to take a look at what you got in there.
Or if it’s some kind of planet or secret island, then, i’unno…
“1024k should be enough for anybody” < Me, not that long ago, and man I wish it was actually true. I can't barely get by with even 1MB of video memory any more. 512k is about my lower limit… 800×600 in 256 colours, it's all you need to get by, but it's no more than that.
Why mention only rams, why not nannies too?
I don’t get it…
I need to go back and find this on tumblr so I can reblog it…
Heh, heh, Willis has Walky hair.
Maybe webcomic artists should stick to comics, just like all OTHER celebrities are not magically politically genius and should as a matter of good policy keep their political opinions out of their work.
I can’t read this as sincere.
Sorry if you’re being sincere!
Yeah, like actors should stick to acting and not get involved in politics!
Like Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwartzenegger, and Clint Eastwood did. –Wait…
Like all those directors and screenwriters keep their political opinions out of their movies, yeah? Or like all those authors keep their political opinions out of the books they write?
Twice as many? That’s absurd. There can only be so many imaginary people. Any more would be silly.
Oh man, dude, I like totally get where you’re coming from, but I think this strip might piss off some people out there that are just trying to–
Okay, I can’t keep a straight face.
I remember the “conversation” that sparked this. It was… ugly.
As an ugly person, I find that comment offensive. Ugly don’t wrap up the horror of that conversation in the slightest.
It helps if you just think of us ALL as imaginary people. You’ve never met the vast majority of us, we might all be sophisticated chat bots who post algorithmically generated comments, then subtly start including ads in what we write.
Of course, that’s absurd. Why would someone write software just to advertise in the comments for a comic about Transformers and Batman. I would much rather talk about Transformers and Batman than other great products like the new Go-Bots playset for $24.99 which is available in stores right now, and sure to be a hit with people like me who are fans of Transformers and Batman.
Speak for yourself, chat bot.
I am a complete delusion, plain and simple.
Lucky bastich. I’m an incomplete delusion. Whatever you do, don’t try to imagine my right knee.
Oh god…I tried to imagine it…it’s not…my mind…it’s breaking…
What disappoints me is that men only take complaints about misogyny seriously when they come from another man. If a woman complains, she’s a “bitch,” an “angry feminist” and her views can be dismissed.
As a non-heterosexual woman of color, I find this applies with white people speaking on racism, straight people speaking on homophobia…it’s like the people committing these shitty things can only be persuaded to stop by the people they AREN’T doing it to.
Ugh.
As a black guy who reads a lot of social justice sites, I’ve seen complaints taken seriously only when they come from someone in the “right” group. I’ve actually had another black guy discount my opinion just because I disagreed with him, when he had literally just said that any minority would agree with him. It was surreal.
He also was in total denial about discrimination existing against straight white men, when a SWM had described an occasion where he was explicitly told he couldn’t get a job he was qualified for because he was a white male. I even linked him to Reginald Denny’s Wikipedia page, and he didn’t even acknowledge it.
I don’t think my speaking about a white person’s life is necessarily any more valid than him speaking about mine. I’ve seen plenty of minorities who were perfectly willing to be dicks to minorities.
To be perfectly honest, I don’t acknowledge anyone who links to anything on wikipedia, either. If you know your stuff, you should also know where to find a valid source to support what you have to say.
This isn’t 2004. Unless you’re defending a doctoral thesis, wikipedia is a perfectly acceptable source.
“He also was in total denial about discrimination existing against straight white men”
As a not-a-black-guy who reads social justice websites, I don’t think you have to be in ‘denial’ about the meaningless non-issue of discrimination against straight white men.
Honestly though as a gay dude I feel like way to many people just continue the circle of hate. I mostly agree with Smith here. Can’t I have a discussion about sexuality or racism without bashing straight white men anymore?
It’s one thing to be upset about the way things are. That’s fair and 100% justifiable and people should be. Things aren’t perfect (Though I feel slowly stuff is getting better and that some people should celebrate victories a bit more.) I mean I know I’m not happy myself. It’s another thing to be just as much of a jerk as the people who are jerks. It doesn’t help anything. It makes things worse. It makes people feel they need to be defensive. Be it homophobia, racism, or sexism. A lot of people want to create this “us against them” mentality. It’s just terrible. You don’t stop racism or sexism or homophobia by posting on your blog “This blog isn’t for whites/males/straights please do not follow or reblog me if you are white/male/straight ” That. Isn’t. Helping. AT ALL. It makes things worse. You’re throwing up a wall.
And it especially bothers me when people are just mean to other people for no reason. I see people being absolute jerks to bisexuals because they’re only bisexual and not pansexual. Screw you their sexuality is none of your business and that is not okay. Ever. It’s not okay to call bisexual girls attention seeking whores.
I saw someone just the other day bashing a black boy for “losing his cultural identity” and “Submitting to what the whiteman wants him to be” and “Race traitor” simply because they wanted to just live life without getting caught up in social justice debates. Because he was sick of dealing with them everywhere. That’s his choice. Bashing him because he doesn’t want to be an activist gets you no where. It was hateful and awful and I honestly see it all the time. It doesn’t help anything.
I see people say that white woman or men (Some who did NOTHING wrong) beaten because of their race by people deserve it because it takes them down a notch. That’s sickening. Hate like that is never okay. No one should ever be beaten. How the hell can anyone wish that on anyone no matter who they are or where they come from? It’s terrible no matter who it happens to. It should never happen. Ever. Be it a white man/woman beating a POC or a POC beating a white person. I see the same kind of thing posted by gays about straights. Or by woman about raped men. It doesn’t help at all… It just breeds more hate and ignorance.
It’s so easy to carry on a debate without bringing real hate into things. It’s easy to talk about how things aren’t perfect without wishing harm onto others or celebrating when it happens. Yet all sides just simply can’t do it. I can’t stand it. It bothers me. An educated debate just can’t be held by either side anywhere.
And as I said all the way at the top. Things aren’t perfect. That’s pretty clear. I do think things are getting better. Slowly. It’s progression. But the hate isn’t helping.
http://fuckyeahsocialjusticesally.tumblr.com
Pretty much anything else I would complain about is there. Or you can find it spending like 5 minutes on Tumblr. And I should totally be clear that not everyone is like this because they aren’t. I’m just seeing it a lot lately and it’s bothering me a ton.
Which is pretty much why I stopped trying to get involved on social issues Tumblr pages after a particularly ugly incident.
I’m a straight white male, and seriously – no one discriminates against me. They like trust me with their house keys and babies and shit. Anyone who thinks straight, white cis-men have it tough is delusional. This is life on easy mode.
That said, anyone want a free baby?
“What disappoints me is that men only take complaints about misogyny seriously when they come from another man.”
I can only assume you have the empirical evidence to back up this claim.
Generalized anecdotal claims don’t require empirical evidence because they are A) generalizations, and thus obviously, not without exception; and B) anecdotal, implying that the speakers own experience is the evidence.
And they are also tend to be total weak sauce as far as persuasion goes.
Agreed. Unless the listener has similar experiences. But in that case, the need for persuasion is, like, nothing.
It’s been a long time since I read anything about rhetoric, but aren’t there also some things accepted as “given?” On a cultural basis? Like, it’s understood that, if your audience is American, they know what McDonald’s is, who the Simpsons are, and whether or not they’ve seen Star Wars, they understand that “Luke, I am your father” is something Darth Vader said.*
Granted, dealing with something like this is more than a little subjective, but is it so hard to anticipate that the listener has, at least once in their lives, heard men call a woman an “angry feminist” so he could dismiss her views without thinking about it? It’s certainly a common enough occurrence in American culture.
*(yes, I know Vader didn’t say those exact words like that. But it’s that “Beam me up, Scotty” thing.)
Yes, but what’s your point?
That Kaixa shouldn’t have to supply empirical evidence anyway, because most people in this society have had the experience of hearing women complaining about feminist issues being dismissed as “just an angry feminist.”
“Given” things tend to change. I was shocked when a 25 year old American did not get the reference to “play it again Sam” (this was 2 years ago).
I don’t get the reference either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvE-KVCbvow
It’s a very famous (mis)quote from “Casablanca,” which is widely considered one of (if not the) best movies ever made.
It’s a line that wasn’t in Casablanca. Other lines that weren’t in Casablanca include “Beam me up, Scotty”, “Elementary my dear Watson” and “Luke, I am your father.”
You’re being sarcastic, right?
What sort of empirical evidence would satisfy you in this situation? Who would be an unbiased observer recording these interactions that you would not discount? What sort of survey could be constructed where you imagine men would answer honestly? Because how many guys if asked “do you only take sexism seriously when men bring it up?” would answer yes, even if they are actually unconsciously doing it?
And that’s the thing. When it comes to discussions of this sort, it’s all anecdotal. You can get statistics about hiring practices and wages but you can’t get them for who’s listening to who. So the bottom line is, when a woman (or POC or LGBT, etc) tells you about their experiences. [i]Listen![/i] Don’t try to argue that aren’t experiencing things because that’s a dick move.
I do listen, or at least I try to listen. That’s why I get annoyed when people state in absolutes that I don’t listen.
Her empirical evidence is your post, Lolsberry Shortcake.
There is a well known cognative bias that your more likely to be convinced by people who are like you.
As a white male who may or may not be hetrosexual, I do take all complaints of misogomy seriously. I honestly don’t want to offend anyone at all.
Can I break my usual attempt at a thin and useless gender/race/etc neutral cover and put my hand up to say “er, no, one who doesn’t, reporting in”?
Hear enough reports of it from women I know – and several I don’t – and it winds me right up how people still act that way in 2012. One of the recent PA “Trenches” reports had a stunning, bile-raising example of this.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that if people are dismissing you as a “bitch” or an “angry feminist”, it’s not because you’re a woman, it’s because you are coming across as a “bitch” or “angry”. I mean, you can’t exactly call a gentle considerate person that, can you?
And yes, it’s perfectly viable to dismiss someone in a debate for being even slightly abusive.
I never said anyone called me those things.
But for the sake of argument, being gentle and considerate went out the second some guy I didn’t know grabbed my ass. It went out the minute I had to listen, for the hundredth time, about how men should have “a say” in whether a woman gets an abortion because the embryo is “half his.”
I am not a bitch because I call out male privilege where I see it. Much like I get called “racist” for pointing out white people’s racism toward me, I get called a manhater for even the tiniest bit of resistance against male privilege and ingrained misogyny.
And it’s happening right now. Here I am, having to defend myself against accusations of being an angry bitch. Let me give you a great example of my angry bitchiness:
“Excuse me. That’s my body. Don’t touch me.”
“No, the decision to abort belongs to the woman and the woman only. It’s her body. Until he can magically carry the pregnancy, unless his choice aligns with hers, I’m afraid he’s SOL.”
Thank you for your time.
I think it’s horrible that some ****head treated you that way. I’ve heard other similar stories from other women, some bordering on the frightening.
I just wanted you to know that not all men are like that.
“I never said anyone called me those things.”
Oh, okay, so you just meant towards… other women? But not you?
“And it’s happening right now. Here I am, having to defend myself against accusations of being an angry bitch.”
No, I did not call you an ‘angry bitch’. I said if people are calling you angry, then it’s because they think you’re angry. That’s exactly what I said, and that’s exactly what people aren’t calling you.
“But for the sake of argument, being gentle and considerate went out the second [...] I had to listen, for the hundredth time, about how men should have ‘a say’ in whether a woman gets an abortion because the embryo is ‘half his.’”
Well considering that’s not a sexist or offensive debating point, but a legitimate one (those people believing that the embryo is a body of its own and should be treated as such), then yes. Perfect example. Responding visibly angry at that would make you a ‘bitch’, regardless of how frustrated you are at the issue.
“[gentle and considerate response to this issue]”
I… yeah, okay, you’re not a ‘bitch’.
Blah, okay, this one’s getting away from me. The point I’m trying to make is that a feminist’s job is not to just be aware of sexism, but to convince other people of it too. And that means that you can’t be doing things that will make people not want to listen, or things that will put your arguments in a position to be dismissed. People shouldn’t dismiss your arguments for being angry, but if people are, then it’s also your responsibility to do something about that.
And by you I mean… er… ‘women’, as you would say.
I don’t side 100% with either of you, but you’re kind of derailing here. It’s not an affected person’s “responsibility” to correct a member of whatever majority. Majority person really should know better or try to learn. It is conducive to them learning if affected person explains nicely, with I statements and clear ideas, what was done wrong and why it was wrong, without putting the person too far on the defensive. But it’s in no way his or her responsibility.
Oh, you’re so right. I should be as sweet as sugar and spice to soften the blow. I should use pretty little words that come out of my pretty little mouth. Don’t want to upset the menfolk, after all.
You’re right. It’s my job to placate misogynistic assholes. Just like it’s my job to educate stupid racist fucks.
Are you trying to change their mind, or are you trying to yell at them? Two different goals with very different approaches, and in some situations yelling at them is the right call.
When I have a friend or family member with misconceptions (please don’t think I’m belittling women’s rights, I’m using the word to extend it to more general disagreements) I want to change their mind about the matter, and hostility usually doesn’t help since it puts them on the defensive. If it’s about an action going on *at that moment* I want to stop it, and in that case what they think about me afterward is usually the least of my concerns.
Most people like that aren’t going to change. For me, it’s just important to let them know that they are not going to go through the world, thinking that way, without consequences.
C, not to dissuade you from sounding like a frothing psychopath when responding to racists, males, or whomever you choose, but I should point out that being yelled at by you is not a ‘consequence’, unless ‘having their opinions about women being stupid emotional psychos who can be summarily dismissed with a condescending laugh’ is a consequence.
Unless you’re expressing your ire by beating them with a baseball bat or something, in which case that’s a consequence all right, but perhaps not the best image to present.
I’m a psychopath? Um, okay. Not sure where that came from, but think whatever you want.
Not only is it my job to use my valuable time to educate bigots, but I should be NICE while doing it so I don’t hurt their widdle feelings.
Because no man would ever call a woman an “angry bitch” unless she was actually being an angry bitch. It’s not like there are sexist assholes who apply those labels to women for simply having and expressing opinions the assholes don’t like, amirite? Who’s with me, fellas?
Anecdotal, but my general experience:
If someone is “incidentally misogynist” – i.e., they’re not a dyed-in-the-wool jerk on the matter, they just have a blind spot or a bleh moment, then they will listen to a woman who protests because she has a right to be upset, but dismiss a guy because “he’s making assumptions and they know they’re usually okay.”
By contrast, if they are heavily sexist in a routine way, then they will dismiss the woman as an angry feminist or a bitch, but *sometimes* will listen (or at least pretend to listen) to arguments from the man, because he has a subconscious clout with them. When strong peer pressure is required, it seems to require someone from the background that they feel most at home in.
Are you serious?
Plenty of people interpret disagreement as a personal attack, and will conclude that the person disagreeing with them must be “angry” or a “bitch” or morally suspect for it. Especially when it comes to topics like this.
And then there are the people who simply resort to ad hominem attacks because that’s how they can “win” a conversation.
I like the complete lack of qualifiers implying that 100% of male humans behave this way.
Grammatically, the sentence “men do that” doesn’t need qualifiers to avoid implying that all men do it. One can just as easily infer that C meant “some men” as “all men.”
It goes both ways. When you’re questioning the status quo in these things, then if you’re a person of whatever relevant privilege, then you don’t know what you’re talking about.
People don’t like inconvenient realities about the society they live in or their privileged position in it or the backs of the unprivileged that their position is built on pointed out to them, and will tend to utilize whatever means are readily available to dismiss them.
Of course, they’ll dismiss you double hard if you are a person lacking whatever position of privilege, because without it you’re clearly beneath notice anyway.
Disappointed is a good term here, though it implies that one might reasonably have expected otherwise. Frustrated certainly works. Infuriated, too. It’s infuriating.
Utterly true. I’m a non-heterosexual white woman…My area is very racist and homophobic, and people don’t take me seriously when I argue about homosexuality with them – they tell me I’m “biased and unfit.” Makes me want to flip a table. They take me very seriously when I argue racism, though, and it seems odd to me because I myself have never been treated poorly for reasons of race.
What disappoints me is when my character is supposed to be summed up by a reference to my entire gender.
Do you see the irony at all, in a thread discussing sexism, you make a sweeping statement about all men?
Mind you, I’m not dismissing your point out of hand, but I am annoyed at the lack of qualifiers, as if all men are to blame or party to this.
Perhaps you didn’t mean it to read that way- in such case, I would consider different phrasing in the future.
I’d feel the same way if someone said “All Canadians support child poverty” in a discussion about nationalism.
You’re so right. Let me modify my thoughts and opinions and how I present them to make you feel more comfortable in your male-privileged little worldview. You should never ever have to feel uncomfortable for your possibly reprehensible actions.
Furthermore, I TOTALLY believe you when you say “I’m not like that,” as I have NEVER had men pull that line before.
Finally, I TOTALLY count on your perception of your own words and actions as being completely fair to women, and non-misogynistic. Because as someone who has absolutely no male privilege blinding you to the actual reality of what you’re doing, you REALLY know how women interpret the things you say and do!
(that was all sarcastic, for anyone who doesn’t get it)
Many men also use more energy whining about a woman pointing out their misogynistic crap than they do actually trying to change their repulsive behavior.
You don’t get to just say “I’m not like THAT” and be believed. Try this, instead: SHOW that you’re not like that. Don’t TALK. DO. Act like a man who sees women as equals. I find that it’s difficult for a lot of men to actually play out the reality of seeing women as equals, but oh so easy to say they’re not misogynistic pieces of shit…since nobody wants to be called a misogynistic piece of shit.
Would these men be happier if I just THOUGHT they were, as long as I never said anything? Staying quiet like a good l’il woman, seen and not heard.
You know who you remind me of, C? You remind me of that woman in the beginning of Boondock Saints. The one that gets hired and that the Saints have to train. The one who pitches a fit over the usage of the phrase “rule of thumb” (inaccurately, I might add), and then kicks one of them in the balls as he’s apologizing. I suppose you’d argue that he had it coming after that “rule of wrist” joke, and yeah, it was definitely in bad taste. But arguing about that isn’t really my point here. My point is that you, like the woman in the movie, aren’t looking to make things better. You’re not looking to have intellectual discourse. You’re looking to feel like a victim so that you’re justified in going off on someone. Just like that woman, who said “I knew you two pricks would give me trouble,” you’re just waiting for the first excuse to haul out your list of wrongs, announce it loudly, and shame everyone else into backing down before you. You are woman, hear you roar, right? Well, we hear it. And I don’t think there’s a person on this site who’s responded favorably to you. There may be a lesson to be learned there, if you’re open to it.
Well, thank you for sharing your opinion. I really don’t care.
So you’re essentially saying there’s something wrong with her because she’s offended by men making jokes about beating women?
That’s nice.
All of this shit basically proves exactly what I’m talking about. In an ideal world I wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Men would just get it. Most men just don’t understand shit. Especially when it comes to treating women decently. Then I’m told there’s something wrong with me when I’m angry. Oh, I’m so sorry. I should just calm down and be a nice, agreeable woman who just lies down and takes this shit. I don’t think so.
I think the reason that so many negative reactions to me happen here is because people simply are not used to seeing a woman this angry. Make no mistake…I’m not alone.
If I had a penis and was whining about misandry I doubt anyone would tell me to be quiet or call me a jerk.
lol. “If I was crying about misandry, I bet no one would tell me to be quiet.” Yeah, it’s not like there was a comic mocking that very phenomenon like two weeks ago here. And the vast majority of commenters agreed with the author too. Yep, we’re all women haters here at Shortpacked. *eye roll*
Wow. I am impressed, C. I am absolutely amazed at how you’ve managed to spin what I said and turn it into something I didn’t even hint at. No sarcasm or anything like that. I really cannot fathom how your mind works. To quote the Dread Pirate Roberts, “Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.” I’m also impressed at the turnaround time on your opinions. Eight minutes to go from “I don’t care” to trying to address what it is you don’t care about. You sure showed me. Put me in my place. I feel utterly insignificant because of how little you care. (That time I was being sarcastic).
Have you seen Boondock Saints, C? I’m going to assume you haven’t, and run through the part I’m talking about. The brothers, working at some sort of meat plant, are asked to train a new hire who is a woman. The scene then cuts to one of the brothers saying “Basically, the rule of thumb here is” at which point the woman cuts him off. She then gives a lecture about how “Rule of thumb” harkens back to the early 20th Century and that it’s a reference to men beating their wives legally. Incidentally, she’s wrong. A quick (by which I mean less than 5 minutes) search on Google will point to the phrase going back to the late 17th Century and referring to measurement, but I digress. In any case, he used a phrase that has no actual misogynistic meaning or connotation in this day and age, and it’s quite possible he didn’t even know the myth connected with the phrase (though I’m not going to claim to know the character’s mind and say he definitely didn’t), and she immediately launches into a lecture. He makes a joke that is, as I mentioned and you ignored earlier, in poor taste. She says that she knew those “two pricks” would “give [her] trouble,” an indication that she was waiting for an excuse to feel victimized. And then, as the brother is apologizing, she escalates into physical violence by inflicting on him what is considered one of the most painful things an unarmed human can do to a man. One joke, and an apology immediately following, and yet she feels the need to attack. So, yes, I do think that there’s something wrong with her.
And, continuing that line of thought, I think there is something wrong with your arguing style. As I said before, you don’t seem to be interested in actual discussion. If you were, you wouldn’t be banning men from discussing whether or not we have made progress as a society in rooting out sexism. You wouldn’t be banning whites from discussing whether or not we have made progress rooting out racism as a society. You wouldn’t be generalizing men or whites or any group. And you definitely wouldn’t be taking words that we have said and twisting them around until they no longer resemble anything that has been said (on a side note, you do realize that those words are semi-immortalized on this page, which makes it very easy to tell when you’re doing so, right?). You would be putting forward arguments for your point of view, or logically rebutting others’ points of view. Instead, you seem to thing that berating, belittling, and blowing off others and their arguments is an effective method of debate. It’s not. Sure, you may feel like you won, but all you’re doing is pushing people away until they don’t want to engage. That’s not winning. That’s shutting down lines of communication. And when there’s no communication, there’s no chance for understanding, progress, or anything useful. Please note that I’m not saying anything about laying down or taking shit. All I’m trying to say is that respect will get you much farther than abrasion. Teddy Roosevelt is well-known for having said “Speak softly and carry a big stick.” In your case, logic and reasoning should be your big stick.
Good luck with your good fight, C. If you continue on in this way, you really will need it.
You mean people might misinterpret comics that simplify complex issues for the purposes of humor? Inconceivable!
Oh, this is gold and so true
Yeah, I disagreed with this at first, but this comic has made me see the point at a better perspective. By disagreeing with this earlier I was only supporting the people who don’t want Willis to make any more comics. Why bother worrying about stupid made up people? WE get the joke, if someone else doesn’t get the joke that is their problem and they shouldn’t read shortpacked. IT’S NOT FOR THEM.
I sense someones underpants are on too tight.
Maybe you should consider buying more comfortable ones then. You’ve probably outgrown your old ones.
Hmmmm.
1) It is possible that people could misunderstand your comics on sexism. I mean, it’s not like you have control over what people think. Ambiguity is a real thing. It actually exists.
2) I remember your last comic about misandry. I didn’t see any evidence, however, that anyone actually misconstrued the comic. Or any of your other comics on sexism.
It’s like security. Sure, someone might steal your X-Force #1 from your safety deposit box. But why worry about it?
Because of reasons, of course!
Willis and some dude had almost this exact conversation verbatim in the comments on Willis’ last comic about misandry.
Unrelated: I love that Firefox is telling me that misandry isn’t a word.
That almost makes me want to use Firefox.
Almost.
Or in other words…
“Yes… some people might. But these people are idiots, and you shouldn’t pander to them, as their opinions are of no worth, and if we allow them to gain even more influence than they already have our entire world will turn back to shit.”
If such imaginary people exist, shortpacked is NOT FOR THEM. Shortpacked is only for people who like shortpacked and agree with it. Anyone with criticism should take it elsewhere.
As a delusion, I find the assertion that Shortpacked is not for imaginary people to be insensitive.
You’ve misunderstood me. (See! It happens!) Sure, someone could have misunderstood the comic. But, it’s not that those people don’t matter, it’s that there is no evidence that they actually exist.
What do you mean? Willis is always clear, all the time! I’ve never seen a comic Willis has done that could ever be misunderstood by anyone, and if they do, it doesn’t matter! Those people don’t matter! Shortpacked is NOT FOR THEM or critics like you, it’s for the SMART people. So stop pretending that you think the comic should be more clear! We all know you only want to suppress the message, because you’re a misogynist jerk who probably talks about “misandry” all the time, like it’s a real word or something!
And this is why I don’t comment on such comics, because, quite honestly, I’m missing something to really get the point.
It’s why I also don’t read the comments for said comics, or get emotionally invested in the debates they bring about.
But…aren’t you commenting on this one? Right now?
I don’t know about the “I don’t get emotionally invested in these debates” line. Are you saying that’s just a more pleasant way to be, or that you understand that there is something deeply wrong with your ability to feel emotions, because when it comes to treat women like people and representing them fairly in the media…it just seems like maybe there should be a little emotional involvement? Debates about misogyny aren’t something as simple as “that movie sucked” where some people might get emotionally involved, but overall, it’s not really important whether or not the movie sucked. Debates and discussions (and believe it or not, discussions happen in comment sections just as often) are about things that affect the lives of actual human beings.
If by “I’m missing something” you mean “I’m male and therefore never experienced misogyny,” then I’m sorry, but the solution is not apathy. It isn’t to avoid any discussions that might take place. I get that they might be uncomfortable, but there is never an excuse to see a problem and not bother to educate yourself about that problem.
Let’s put it this way.
When I look at the comments section, a lot of the time, my opinion gets swayed around by good points on either side of the argument. Like a ping pong ball. Until eventually the line gets blurred, many people start their name-calling, and I just get lost overall and move onto the next comic.
So I guess the problem is moreso I can’t find some medium opinion that leaves me satisfied, and nobody commenting really helps.
Or after reading Lizuka’s comments below me, it’s moreso that “I had to be there” situation, and since I’m not even sure what brings up this or “every guy yells for misogyny”, I’m left in the dark and can’t find the humor. :/
The comments section of a webcomic is unlikely to educate anyone about anything as important as social issues.
This strip is of poor quality.
Ad hominem much?
That’s not actually ad hominem… Ad hominem would be “Dave Willis’ sexual prowess is of poor quality (and thus his arguments are worthless and it makes sense to ignore him).”
What this is is simply a completely unsupported statement of opinion.
Oh, right. My bad. (For real.)
From an artistic-technical standpoint it’s not even unsupported. Thing’s a sketch, when the usual quality level of the comic is more finished-looking.
I get the point of them and do agree, but honestly, they’re not funny.
I have to agree. They’re one of those things that don’t really do anything for me. I’m sure some people enjoy them, though. And the comic has always been a vehicle for Willis’s opinions, so it’s sort of how he communicates with us.
It might be a certain kind of “you had to be there” humor, because seriously, just seeing this little bit here reminds me of all the horrible hilarity that spilled forth from That Guy in the comment section last time.
Definitely, because having read some of that conversation, I thought this was kind of funny. Because that is exactly how that guy’s line of reasoning went.
The first couple ones were funny. Later ones felt like running gags where you sort of “heh” a bit. This one was the first that actually made me sigh and tilt my head.
If I wanted more lectures on sexism and how I’m lucky to have external genitals and that means I have to accomplish so much more because I have it so much easier, how men are self-centered brutes and how feeling agressive or trying to be stoic is wrong and evil, I’d talk to my mother. 20+ years gave me my fill though, so this is just irritating.
Then again, I just realized that I first got into these comics by archive-binge, so what were actually about, 2-3 comics about sexism in a year felt like several in a row. So, I take back what I said before.
I do that all the time, partially because of a poor time sense. “Mom, you don’t need to keep calling me to make sure I’m okay.” “I last called two months ago.”
Poor thing.
((((
They are to me because I see men behave like that. Free Speech be damned, some people should just not comment on the internet.
And no, not ALL MEN, before people send me sad notes about how I’m the meanest person on the planet and deserve to be a Captain Planet villain.
Yeah, Willis, provide this free product with the content I want.
Not only do I want you fill my hand, I’ll tell you how to fill it.
Dance, monkey, DANCE!!!
Trust me. You don’t want a monkey to “fill your hand.”
Don’t tell me I want!
FILL ‘ER UP!!!
Honestly, the comics about sexism are some of my favorites because it’s always so nice to see someone who gets it.
I can only say *This*
+1
(insert Facebook “Like” symbol here)
– Signed
I was confused for a minute because this blue/sketchy style is usually the style Willis uses for comic-con type comics, and I thought this actually happened in real life.
It is actually quite an effective strategy, to take something asinine someone said anonymously and put it in the context of face-to-face interaction, to show the absurdity of saying that kind of thing.
And yeah, just because it’s a cartoon doesn’t mean it always has to be laugh-out-loud funny.
Meh, Batman jokes are funnier….
I’ve always found his Batman jokes to be the most misogynist of all.
Why is Batman the only one who can breathe in space, huh? It must be the man part instead of the Bat part, since we never see Batgirl or Batwoman breathing in space, do we?
Conclusive prove of misogyny, right there.
Actually, all women can breathe in space. It’s a secret so don’t tell anyone.
It’s not their fault. In space nobody can hear you tell anyone you can breathe in space.
Unless you’re Batman.
This comics makes me want to read more Willis’ comics with TV Star Fire, just because I love the way he writes & draws her.
I’ve seen this kind of “reasoning” in other contexts.
Person A: *presents actual arguments supporting an opinion*
Person B: “I totally respect your opinion, but I am politely telling you that it might be wrong, because I am guessing that lots of people disagree with it, and I find it hard to believe that my guesses could be that far from the truth.”
Person A: “Um, okay, but what about my arguments?”
Person B: “I don’t mind, but I think you will find it very hard to convince anyone else that your opinion is the right one.”
Person A: “Yeah, but why do YOU think that my ARGUMENTS are WRONG?”
Person B: “Whoa, whoa, let’s not get in a fight over this! You’re entirely entitled to your opinion, I just think it’s important that you’re aware it might upset some people. So the best thing might be to never express it again.”
I know! All these people really want is for the person making the argument to shut up and never argue. Why can’t they just admit that?
PRETENDING like they support the statement and would just appreciate some clarity is such a weak front for their real desire to suppress the statement! Acting like they’re trying to be reasonable. Ha!
Nowhere in the exchange above does Person B seek clarity. All 3 of Person B’s lines are duplicitous “nice” ways of saying that Person A should shut up and not express opinions.
So if you’re talking about what Tenn’s talking about, yes. They’re “acting like” they’re trying to be reasonable. And they’re lying.
If you’re talking about something else, I do wish you’d actually bring up that other topic. It’s confusing if you add details to someone else’s example as if that’s how things happened in their example.
Well I guess they don’t in this example, but I’ve heard them make up nonsense like that before. I still think Tenn’s example is pretty much all those critics in a nutshell however.
Imagine all the people… misconstruing comics in peeeace…
You may sayyyy I’m delusionallll… but I’m not the only onnnnee…
Anyone else read Sinfest too? There’s been a strong theme of anti-misogyny in the strips for the last few months too. I’m wondering if there’s some connection or a wider social trend that’s inspiring it.
I have to admit, I do understand where the “reader” in the strip is coming from too. Misogyny, like any other social issue, is important and attention rightly should be drawn to it. But if it becomes pervasive enough that it appears in a majority of strips, it starts to overwhelm the reader and start sounding preachy. I imagine that most people read comics for escapism and a laugh; if the comic starts to constantly dwell on heavy topics, whether it’s politics or religion or racism or homophobia, it starts becoming too serious for escapism or humour.
At the end of the day, however, it’s the artist’s call for what they want to include in their story. If you enjoy the work, keep reading it. If you disagree with it, you can always change the channel. Nobody’s forcing you to keep reading it. For what it’s worth, I think Willis has done an admirable job so far in addressing these negative subjects without becoming sanctimonious about it, or letting the comics get consumed by them. Good job.
Doubt it. David’s been pretty strong on sexism for a long while, really because, y’know, big-time comic fan. Pretty hard not to be. It might be a little more noticeable now though, because his views are becoming a little more questionable. Or at least, his sexism comics are.
Meanwhile, Shortpacked’s writer (can’t remember his name) has clearly only recently become convinced that sexism is everywhere and just really subtle and influences everything and totally men’s fault and all women agree and porn is EEEEEEEVIL!!! …In other words, he’s obviously only recently become aware of modern sexism, but his backlash against his own past ignorance has pushed his views waaay beyond what could be considered reasonable, to the point where he now believes porn makes you lose empathy, no women like sexual attention at all (resulting in the main female character COMPLETELY changing personality), and drawing the symbol for gender equality as just the female symbol with a fist.
Which is really sad, since the old comic used to be all about being yourself, and how everyone is different, and not letting other people’s judgements or expectations matter to you. In other words, it used to be a very pro-feminism, pro-equality comic. And now it’s… well, it’s not. It’s rather the opposite. Now it’s all “people are all the same, sexual attention is always discriminating, feminists are the intellectual kings of society, all men want the same thing.”
…
Sorry. This wasn’t meant to be a rant about Shortpacked. Point is, no, nothing lately has changed. Other than people becoming more aware of male discrimination, which spurred the last sexism comic (and subsequently this).
Pretty sure you needed a find + replace for Shortpacked => Sinfest here.
Oh for the love of-
I would wholeheartedly agree with that description of Sinfest. It used to be great, but now it’s become too focused on this whole ‘patriarchy’ plotline.
Shortpacked’s writer is Willis, lol?
OK, nevermind, you meant something else. orz
My biggest problem with these “Soapbox” comics is that I have no idea whether Willis is qualified at all to produce educated commentary on complex social ideas (I’m not talking liberal arts degree I’m talking actual social research). If not then he’s just as bad as all of the uneducated bloggers or fox news “experts” who try to pass themselves off as well experts. I understand that this is his comic and he has every right to voice his opinions every now and again, but thus far I’ve found his analysis of social issues to be extremely simplistic (ie I could hear the same from a mechanic who happened to read a wikipedia page) and the repetition of the “This is bad mkay” is getting difficult to stomach.
MSNBC Spins just as much nonsense as Fox News, FYI. I’m getting real sick of people falling back on “Fox Lies” BS.
But to answer your question – every person in a situation where they have a following is tempted to use their position to preach their beliefs, social views or politics. Most of them end up going with that temptation. Whether he’s right or wrong, I listen to Willis about as much as I listen to Bill Mahr. They’re entertainers. I for one, prefer to form my own opinions.
Hence…Batman jokes are funnier.
I’m just gonna leave this here: http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2012/confirmed/final.pdf
Makes me wonder now. Can Batman make gender issues funny?
Given the right treatment, anything can be funny, and Batman is certainly always a step in the right direction.
Batman makes all things better/funnier/worth reading.
I wasn’t aware one had to have a B.A. in Expressing An Opinion nowadays.
I love this. Not only does Willis need to formally study before saying anything, even a COLLEGE DEGREE wouldn’t be enough to pass muster with PorpoiseBoy. No no, he would have to do extensive “field research” before his argument would even be considered. Of course, at that point, I’m guessing Porpoise would claim the methodology was wrong so…
All so Willis can say that “hiding behind imaginary people rather than disagreeing from your own beliefs is pathetic.” PHD
Reading the comments, most of us have more extreme opinions then what we criticize. We just can’t draw.
You don’t need a college degree to point out misogyny. It’s like, everywhere man. Basically whenever a woman says as much as “Hey, this lady in the video game is a warrior in a dangerous situation, why is she wearing a bikini? And why are her breasts a mile long?”, you get a flood of men with opinions like “MEN ARE OBJECTIFIED TOO” or “Yeah, she really belongs in the kitchen!” or “This game is for MEN who like to stare at sexy women. Gaaaaaaawd, ya prude!” And that’s only the ones kind enough to stay away from wishing rape upon her…
There were comics about sexism? All I saw was teh funnay.
your irony was to subtle for some? hit them with it over the head ’til they get it then
I like how nearly every comment is about sexism and feminist comics, good or bad, despite that the comic itself isn’t about that at all.
To be frank, there’s a reason for that: the comic sucks, and it’s very confusing what the joke is. It can’t be “Respect the opinions people might have, even if they haven’t voiced them”, because that’s not a joke. It can’t be “Now imagine twice as many people” because that’s not really funny. The joke seems like it should be related to the person himself, because he’s certainly a strawman. And the comic itself is just really oddly written. The only thing that you do come away with is that this strip has to be about responses to sexism… somehow.
It sounds a bit silly that people would just kind of… imagine a point to the comic. But then again, people have been doing that with XKCD for ages now!
It’s a lot funnier if you’ve run into this kind of argument before.
The humor’s in the lengths people will go to to try and shut down discussion on a topic (like sexism) while pretending they’re not trying to to just that.
None of those complainers are ever sincere! I hate how people like that are always acting like they have good intentions, then they act all mad at us like WE’RE the inconsiderate ones!
The very first panel he says he’s talking about his comics on sexism…how is the comic not about that? The character implies that he shouldn’t do them based on the argument that hypotethetical people might become offended, and when he’s shot down, ups the ante with twice as many hypothetical people like that makes a difference. I’m not sure how that’s not funny, and I’m unsure how the comic isn’t about the feminist comics Willis has been doing of late.
How are people imagining a point? It’s right there.
Pfft, forget those imaginary people. ViHart made a recent video that pretty much says why this is exactly nonsense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm-Jjvqu3U4&feature=g-u-u
Yeah, why should anyone care about a bunch of imaginary people some person just made up? That would be just stupid!
This kind of ties back to tosh.0′s rape joke fiasco. When you make light of subjects which we are trying to combat as a society (like bigotry and violent crime), you’re sending a mixed signal of social acceptance of the idea. It creates a setting of acceptance for things we actually don’t want in our civilization. I realize it’s harder to make jokes that are genuinely clever and don’t fall back on mocking stereotypical tropes, but being able to do so is also a sign of a good comic.
Humor must not professedly teach and it must not professedly preach, but it must do both if it would live forever. – Mark Twain
My response to the Tosh “controversy”: Huh? Which offensive joke specifically caused people to get upset? Did people JUST NOW notice that that is literally his whole act?
I just fail to see how any specific joke could be more offensive than the body of his work. Dude is offensive and shouldn’t be held to any kind of social justice standard. Now to be clear, I still enjoy his show and laugh at it. But he is a TERRIBLE example of any kind of standard and criticism of almost any kind is probably fair.
I just don’t understand why anyone would watch his show when you can just go down YouTube’s front page, watch every video, and read the first comment for each one out loud.
Because professional comedians are quite a bit funnier than every Youtube comment ever written? I hear that a lot and… it’s dumb.
Maybe some professional comedians are, but Tosh… dude, he’s just a clip-show host. Nothing he says on that show is even remotely clever. Honestly, you can play “Fill In The Punchline: The Drinking Game” and be plastered before the second commercial break.
It’s bad enough to make jokes about rape (hell, Willis had that Mike strip that pissed everyone off a few years back), but it’s a whole different ballgame to point to a heckler and say it would be funny if she, specifically, were gang-raped, in the middle of a crowded room. I mean, holy shit.
First off, it wasn’t Tosh.0 controversy. Tosh.0 is a TV show. The controversy surrounds Daniel Tosh, the host of Tosh.0, and his statements toward a heckler at a live stand-up show.
Had said heckler gone into the show expecting to see Daniel Tosh, you’d be… less wrong. But she didn’t. She went in not even knowing who he is. He made a rape joke, she took exception to it, spoke up, and he said “wouldn’t it be funny if she was raped by 5 guys right now?”
Okay, so a person went into an offensive show not knowing it was going to be offensive. That’s ignorant but by no means grounds for attack. She was then (SHOCK) offended. At this point she began heckling which is… well not okay. The TV show Louie had a good episode on this point. She can be offended and complain to whoever, but during the show is a bit… well. So then the offensive comedian proceeded to trash the heckler, an EXTREMELY COMMON response to hecklers. Is it polite? Nope. Is anything in his act polite? Nope, so why are we suddenly surprised?
I’m guessing the missing link here is the: “his fans would maybe do it!” which is a danger, true. But it sounds like he wasn’t making a call to action or anything crazy like that, just making an offensive “irony” joke.
So to sum up, the situation was unfortunate, but avoidable. People certainly have the right to criticize his style of humor, but I think he still has the right to practice it.
The problem, from most accounts that I have read, boils down mostly to the fact that his comment simply wasn’t funny, but just mean spirited. It was a “joke” in the same sense that Michael Richards’ rant from a couple years back was a “joke.”
Besides, if Dane Cook is one of the first people to jump to your defense, that’s surely a sign that you’re in the wrong from a comedic perspective.
Also, one of the reasons it wasn’t funny, was that there was no irony to his comment.
“I don’t think rape is funny.”
“Well, wouldn’t it be funny if you got raped?”
“No, I’m pretty damn sure it would actually be less funny.”
The Onion actually nailed it right on the head. It would have been ironic and funny if Daniel Tosh were the one to (hypothetically for the purpose of the joke) get raped.
The thing about Tosh is that he’d probably agree with that. He is incredibly offensive, but at the same time he targets himself most often of all. For example, some comedians make homophobic jokes. Tosh “fake outs” himself all the time which to his audience is basically a huge bullseye. This season on Tosh.0, every episode ends with a heckler shouting a common criticism of the show (I saw this on Reddit already!). He fake quit his show and got Chris Rock to briefly “take over”. Afterwards, it was a running gag that EVERYONE thought Rock was an upgrade.
My point is that Tosh is extremely willing to take punishment and criticism, just not heckling in the middle of his act. I don’t know any comedians who do well with hecklers. I’ve seen hilarious counterattacks from the comedians to the hecklers, but I’m not sure ‘isn’t great at making his insults funny’ is a criticism we need to focus on.
As to the “if Dane Cook defends you, you’re wrong!” style argument. Well no. It would depend on what Cook said, maybe he made a good point. If he said “that dumb b should have just shut up” yeah that’s not helpful.
Dane Cook’s exact Tweet:
“If you journey through this life easily offended by other peoples words I think it’s best for everyone if you just kill yourself.”
So, yeah. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
I don’t think anybody is trying to defend heckling or hecklers. I think the problem is that some people are trying to automatically excuse Tosh’s words because “hey, she’s a heckler. She had it coming.”
In other words, just because one side is wrong, that doesn’t mean that the other side is automatically right.
Agreed, you can’t say just ANYTHING to a heckler. And honestly I think you should be able to criticize ALL of his jokes. I just won’t care and neither will any of his fans because that’s the way he is. It’s not like he’s a governor or teacher or something. He’s an insulting comedian, it’s pretty much his profession to be a dick.
So I looked the incident up on Huff Po. Apparently the comedy club disagreed with her account on several points, check it out: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/10/daniel-tosh-rape-joke-laugh-factory_n_1662882.html#slide=more237790
So in the final tally, saying someone should get raped =bad.
Lying about exactly what an OFFENSIVE COMEDIAN said in his show after YOU heckled HIM = also bad.
I can’t find anything in the manager’s story that actually disputes anything she said. He specifically says that he didn’t hear that well. And Tosh’s silence as to where, exactly, the “out of context misquotes” came from speaks volumes. So in the TRUE final tally,
Saying a heckler, yes, a heckler, should be gang-raped in a space you control: ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE
Belittling the same: SICKENING
“I can’t find anything in the manager’s story that actually disputes anything she said.” Because you can’t read or because you didn’t read the link?
She said: Tosh said ___ and I had to RUN FOR MY LIFE right then and there.
Manager said: Tosh said (completely different) ___ and she sat through the whole performance. She did not complain to management either.
Those aren’t even similar. Someone who is terrified of being gangraped doesn’t just sit and wait out the rest of the show. Someone who is embarrassed and mad might do that… And then write up the story in the most damaging way possible, but NOT confront management because they wouldn’t agree with her story (because she changed a bunch of things).
Even in her version, Tosh DOES NOT say that she SHOULD be gangraped. He makes a stupid joke about how that would be “ironic.” In the manager’s account, he doesn’t even do that he just makes a second generic rape joke.
Attacking others based on second hand accounts which you clearly did not even read: PATHETIC.
…I’m pretty sure that making a mockery of evil is one of the most effective ways of eliminating it. Humiliation generally is.
If you’re mocking someone for a good quality, that’s where I’d draw the line.
That was Mel Brooks’ motto. He wanting to make Hitler and his ideals seem ridiculous, so “Springtime for Hitler.” He wanted to make racism seem absurd, so Blazing Saddles. One of the many reasons I love that movie.
Of course, this is the film with the notorious “I like rape” exchange.
Spoken by a bad guy who was part of the “assortment of scum” that Hedly gathered to do his dirty work. Said group also included Nazis and Klansmen.
There’s an article floating around about the right way to do a rape joke, with four or five examples of comedians who successfully made rape jokes that didn’t spark ire and hatred. A big part of it is generally to not just say “rape is funny” and to never make the rape itself or a victim the punchline of the joke. A lot of the more successful jokes of that nature are basically holding up the rape culture and saying “Isn’t this ridiculous?” in much the same way that Brooks did with racism in his movies.
The conclusion, basically, is that rape jokes can be funny if the rapist is the punchline rather than the victim.
Funny enough, earlier I disagreed with Willis specifically on this topic till someone else brought up this point. Why bother hypothesizing about what people may think? WE all get the meaning of his comics so why bother worrying about some made-up people? It’s not like it’s Willis’s job to prevent people from misreading the comics, they are the ones who should be smart enough to understand the comic. If not then they probably shouldn’t read shortpacked. It’s not for them.
Ah, the concern troll. Where most trolls are just aggressive, concern troll goes the extra mile to get that passive bit in there. Because if they don’t use bad words, and claim to be ‘on your side’ then suddenly you’re the one being unreasonable when you tell them right where they can shove it!
I know! Why do all these trolls have to disagree with people? We know they just do it to annoy us because we’re always right!
That is the eternal problem with pegging concern trolls… but phrases such as “could be misconstrued” are pretty much always a dead giveaway.
Yeah! I hate that! Always acting like they genuinely want clarity in the message. They only want the message shot down, and we all know it!
It’s different if it actually has been misconstrued, but when someone who clearly didn’t misconstrue it, and can’t point to anyone who’s misconstrued it, says “you might be misconstrued unless…” the “unless” nearly always subtly compromises the message. “Concern troll” is indeed a label to be trotted out with caution, but that caution itself must be tempered.
Well that’s very strange, my other comments aren’t showing up at all.
In any case, just wanted to say I agreed with this is all.
Oh look, there they are! It only took five hours.
I don’t know what other things Willis received that led to this comic, but I suspect my comments on the “mob of men shouting misandry at the girls who dared to stand up for equality” comic contributed.
Let me put it this way. If you get involved in an internet argument with certain types of people about, let’s say, race, and you are white, the only way to inoculate yourself from being automatically considered racist is to agree with the notion that all whites are automatically racist. You aren’t even allowed to argue that racism isn’t as bad as it used to be on a national average. Believe me, I’ve tried. You either have the white guilt or you are racist, period. And this is other white people saying this.
So, Willis’s comic kind of gave me that same feeling along the sexism angle. Men are bad, you should feel bad for being a man, and if you don’t agree that all men are sexist then you are sexist. It makes me want to care a little less about women’s representation in comics if supporting the issue means the people I am agreeing with will tell me I’m a bad person. The “imaginary person” referenced in the tumblr comic is ME, even though I understood the original comic perfectly.
I acknowledge I’m probably reading a lot into it that may not be there, since I’ve been kind of sensitized to this sort of thing. One thing the comic oversimplifies though is that when a woman on the internet stands up for equality in comics and sexist men crawl out of the woodwork to attack her and wish that she get raped and other nasty bullshit, there are just as many if not more people, men and women both, supporting her. Though that’s hard to depict in the comic, yes. I think perhaps it is not an easy thing to get across that you are attacking the specific men who are sexist rather than attacking all men for supposedly being sexist. Even though I knew the original comic was the former it still gave me the bad aftertaste of the latter.
You know, I see what you are getting at, and generall agree ith the wrongness of the white men are always wrong on the issue angel, but I do have to point out one thing about that pertcular comic that does prove that not all men are like that. It’s the simple fact that none of the male main characters are with the group crying misandry. I mean, was Ethan in the group? Was Mike? Glasso? Ninja Rick? Heck, even Faz had a good enough sense to not be there. Who was there? The various side characters who’s sole perpouse is to come in and complain about something stupid. Doesn’t that implicitly prove not all guys act like this and it’s just a very vocal minority?
It’s like in the ‘Evening with Kevin Smith’ Q&A, a girl got up and complained about a scene in one of his movies where one of the characters said lesbians just needed sex with a man to sort them out. Or words to that effect.
Kevin’s response was basically, “…. you do realise it was the IDIOT saying that? The guy who is supposed to be wrong?”
Ray (from MT?), your arguments don’t link up.
You have to admit all white people are racist.
vs
They won’t accept my argument that racism has totally gotten better (and thus the implicit argument that this is even worth talking about)!
Do you see the gap there? Dismissing your argument as problematic (or stupid as many might say) does not automatically mean they are insisting you accept fault before entering. Basically, you’re insisting the only point you can hold besides white guilt is attacking progressive arguments with “well actually…” Obviously, this is not the case.
NO white person is qualified to determine whether racism has gotten better. How the fuck would they know? Is it happening to them? No. Do they therefore have any idea what the fuck they’re talking about? Hell no.
NO man is allowed to make the determination that misogyny has improved. How the fuck would they know? Is it happening to them? No. Do they therefore have any idea what the fuck they’re talking about? Hell no.
You just sound like a butthurt white male who wants to whine about how his life is just soooo hard. Wah wah wah. So. Hard.
P.S. Saying that racism isn’t as bad as it used to be is in itself a racist statement.
I realize that when white people say this they typically mean that in most places, the brutal, public murder of POC is no longer condoned by society. Leave it to a white person to set THAT as a standard. Yes, something better than people of color being openly murdered is improvement.
Those of us with brown skin should feel so lucky to not have to fear for our lives every second. We should be so grateful to have racist epithets shouted at us, because that’s better than being killed.
“It makes me want to care a little less about women’s representation in comics if supporting the issue means the people I am agreeing with will tell me I’m a bad person. ”
Good. As a feminist I neither want nor need the support of a loser such as yourself.
And how fucking egotistical to assume Willis created a character based on something you said. Way to make it all about you, which is what so many white men reading this are doing.
Wah, poor me, my feelings are hurt, acknowledge ME, make me agree with you, I don’t want to believe what you say because you’re so MEEEEAN, wah wah wah.
Woah there. That doesn’t sound like what he was saying at all.
Racism and misogyny are both definitely better than they were in the past. While this argument is kind of pointless, seeing as it’s… extremely obvious, it’s not wrong of him to say it. And nowhere does it say he wants to stop there.
Look, I’m female + lgbt + 1/4 black (I look white, but my sister looks half, and of course, all my aunts and uncles on my dad’s side are half-black, and my dad’s talked about racism with me many a time, though I cannot claim to understand what it’s like, of course), and I’m pretty pissed off about various social issues as well. But that doesn’t mean you have to blow up about it at some stranger over the Internet whom you will likely never meet or talk to beyond this. It’s just a waste of time.
Thank you for your opinion.
Dude, C, Jesus Christ. You need to stop flooding at individuals like they are the condensed personification of all injustice everywhere.
Not everyone you meet is the final boss who you have to unleash all four of your dudes and their accumulated EP upon.
When such a final boss arrives, you have my blessing to go to town on them. But this is no such animal, and you are being a jerk.
I’m sorry you see it that way.
No, don’t mention how wrong he was. Just that he said it in a way that made him a jerk. You have your priorities straight, Willis.
I’m pretty sure my comic itself addresses the wrongness. …or, wait, is C a he? I really have no idea what’s going on here, or which of these folks you’re accusing me of prioritizing yadda yadda. Pronoun trouble.
All I know is that this is a comments forum, one that has like one important stated rule: “Be nice to other people.” In other words, try to express your anger without directly insulting the other person. Calling Ray Kremer a “loser” violates that rule. It crosses a line.
There may be other people calling other folks bad names on this page. I’ve been in an airport all day, and it’s not exactly a piece of cake to moderate 200 posts from my phone on spotty wifi. C’s just unfortunate enough to be the one who had the sixteen billion most-recent posts in the queue, all attacking other people.
Why not? I think such misogyny should be fought everywhere. If you ask me C was going easy on him. Why’d Ray have to come in here with all this stupid “misandry” bullshit like it’s even a thing? It’s just a stupid cover up to oppress women.
With comments like this about other comics, I wish he’d link to one or two examples. I can’t for the life of me remember his last comic about sexism or imagine in what way someone could misconstrue it.
Read the MISANDRY comic comments.
MISANDRY! Wahhhh, poor me, I’m a misandry victim. Feminists are misandrist! MEE MEE MEE!!
I know! Men are so stupid all the time right?
Poor men. They have to deal with misandry. Poor, poor men. Not free to sexually harass whoever they want. Not free to say women should be in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.
I will say there are some men that I like. A lot. The problem is, THOSE men ignore me, and the men I don’t want do anything BUT ignore me. Fantastic, I know.
I know! Can’t those stupid losers ever get a clue? You’d think they’d show women a little respect after all they’ve been through, but not a single one ever considers a woman’s feelings ever. It always has to be about them all the time! If only the good looking ones gave attention, and the ugly ones would just back off…
Omigosh, Darksen, you are such a good feminist! Amazing how you have such a good understanding of our core beliefs, such as men being so stupid all the time lol. Also, you know the truth that we label men ‘creepy’ because they are unattractive, it certainly has nothing to do with their behavior, whatever we claim! You are certainly not a troll.
Darksen, your little disingenous sarcasm routine is getting really, really thin.
You’re not funny and you’re not right. You are simply pitching ad ridiculum attacks into the nether and waiting for your opponent to get tired.
Oh good, it wasn’t just me then….
Won’t somebody please think of the Imaginary Children?
I absolutely love this comic. It used to make me so furious whenever people used that argument.
If people have an opinion they shouldn’t disguise it as somebody else’s. If you walk around on eggshells for people you don’t know nothing productive will ever happen and you won’t have fun doing it.
What about the real people who DO understand but still think your PC sidetrips are full of shit?
Well, it’s pretty clear from what you’ve just said that you are a real person who doesn’t understand anything.
Anyone else hear John Lennon while reading this comic?
A John Lennon robot might read this comic and…do something. It could happen.
Someone somewhere doesn’t understand a thing you are saying in a public space! And then they will MISCONSTRUE it! Clearly the answer is to never say anything.
That poor fool made a mistake. He SAID SOMETHING, and you MIGHT BE MISCONSTRUING HIS POSITION. And those poor imaginary people with their imaginary opinions given second-hand! A thousand pangs of imaginary empathy leap forth from my heart. Maybe even two thousand!
I’ve been reading your comics since 2005 (god I feel old, that’s the first year of Shortpacked!) but most of the ones I share are the comics on sexism. This means I’ve been doing a lot of sharing recently. You enrich my life with smiles, David Willis, for every time you make experienced sexism humorously accessible to the uninitiated, and remind shut-ins like me that we’re not alone. Bravo.
Comics against sexism are cool and all, but I hope to see more naked lesbians soon.
Sometimes, stuff like this makes me want to see what would happen if everyone in the orld would sponaniously change genders. I mean, what would happen? What would the world look like after the dust settles and the chaos dies down? Would we come out of it with a better sense of understanding, or would things go back to how they origonally were? And if the latter, would it now be the women in control because they were the ones in control of the power, or would it be back to the new men in charge?
Man, I have some weird thoughts.
I have had a similar thought along the lines of “What would happen to the world if all the whites suddenly… weren’t white?”
There would be a massive freak-out, and then they’d quickly settle down to the business of discriminating against people based on their accent.
That was more or less my conclusion. Massive freak out, then back to the business of hating each other for trivial reasons as usual.
I think it was Terry Pratchet who said that if there were only two people left in the world, the right-handed one would turn on the left-handed.
This is a weird thing to use as a source/example, but you’re reminding me of an episode of Fairly Oddparents. Not the one where Timmy accidentally wishes himself a girl, but the one where he wishes everyone looked exactly alike. Turns out, people are still the same as they were before, only they look the same. I’d imagine it’d be something like that, only with power struggles, civil wars, fights, arguments, the occasional couple finding out what sex is like for the other person, a lot of people figuring out what it’s like to masturbate as the other side, a lot of men going “Oh, THAT’S what I’ve been doing wrong,” etc, etc. In the end, I rather think we’d basically end up with the status quo remaining unchanged.