“It’s a cunning plan, one that could not possibly fail”
As cunning as a fox who’s just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University?
“Wait, wrong document. These aren’t the secret plans for saving DC Comics. These are proofs for Alan Moore’s upcoming cookbook.”
“It’s a cookbook!”
Oh god I lol’ed so hard at work.
A cookbook that needs alot of R43p to prepare a meal? Not sure I want to see the preperation illistrations.
If it’s a cookbook, maybe it’s referring to canola oil? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola
Or maybe it’s in french; Salade de Carrotte rapees, grated carrot salad. You put vinagrette on it.
Moore: “I have a cunning plan.”
DC: “Yeah, what is it?”
Moore: *gesticulates dramatically* “We do… nothing.”
Is it wrong that in my head I constantly hear the “cunning plan” lines in these comments as spoken by Tony Robinson (read: Baldrick)?
Not at all.
After all, it’s part of his cunning plan…
How much do you want to bet that was a fake plan he put in his safty deposit box, and he has the real one stashed in his matress, which he tore up 35 minutes ago?
The real plan says
“write good comics”
AHAHAHAH, I wish. -___- That would be far too logical for comics.
It’s funny ’cause it’s true.
Are you sure that wasn’t Garth Ennis house Robin?
Although to be fair that only pertains to The Boys…
Judge Dredd is awesome
You have spoken against the greatest series ever written. Your smiting will begin in 3…2…1…
To be fair I actually like The Boys! But it is kind of…. rapey and disturbing at some times mind you the most disturbing comic series i have read.
If you mean Judge Dredd I love Judge Dredd i don’t think i can make it any clearer then that.
No need, Mr. Moore, DC’s got enough rape for everyone.
I was gonna say – DC already tried that plan. It didn’t work.
I was gonna say – DC already tried that plan. It didn’t work, it just made everyone feel very uncomfortable.
Hmmmm… Now a question of etiquette… Is it better to pretend I didn’t notice it posted my comment midway through my typing it so it appeared twice, or post a third time to apologise. Decisions, decisions…
Ofcorse it didn’t work. They used Dr. Light to do the raping.
No es Bueno.
I have nothing witty to add here. I’m at a loss.
Insert political comment here.
Insert offended but trying to hard it reply here.
*trying to hide it.
The typo was because angry people…type…poorly.
Don’t worry, misspelling is an integral part of the troll’s arsenal.
Insert Viagra joke here.
Insert sexual remark about you mother here.
Insert subtle reference to nickels here.
Whine about needing femurs here.
Ask if I am using “FAAAAAACE” comment correctly here.
Insert complaint about people using tired old memes here.
Alan Moore is a crazypants.
“…while singing the Ninja Turtles theme? I always wondered what Mike would look like with a beard…”
Personally I’m just surprised it wasn’t just a 20lb “box of rape”.
Remember kids, rape isn’t funny, unless you’re raping a clown I guess. Just say no to rape.
Now, who is this “Alan Moore”?
Fairly well known comic writer for a number of critically acclaimed comic book series; also pretty weird guy.
I’d say he’s more than fairly well known. He’s responsible for From Hell, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, V For Vendetta Watchmen, and the character of John Constantine (and those are just his works that have been adapted into movies).
Well-known in comics circles. Among non-comics fans, I’d argue he’s probably top ten*, but probably eclipsed by at least Stan Lee, Mark Millar, and Frank Miller (because they haven’t been shy about attaching their names to movies).
This is all speculation, of course.
*no pun intended
He’s pretty well known outside of comics circles, too. Watchmen was on Time’s All-TIME 100 Novels list — the only comic book/graphic novel on the list.
Ok, yeah, you’re right. Watchmen, besides Maus, was probably the top comic read by people who don’t read comics in the eighties.
Oh god, Joker mental images here. Oh god.
I did it 35 minutes ago.
Yes I’m aware there’s a 35 minutes ago joke up there. I wanted to do it anyway.
Then you should have waited until exactly 35 minutes after the first guy posted. More meta that way.
….son of a bitch! That’s genius.
well he is the Doctor… Comes only natural to him
It’s his Timey-whimey senses.
He could actually go back in time and do it 35 minutes before the first guy did it, but that wouldn’t be cool.
The doctor did it 35 minutes before it was cool.
And crossed his own time stream in a Teselecta just so the marriage wouldn’t count.
I want to be on Alan Moore’s side so much in this whole thing, but between that crap and his open disdain for anyone who’s doesn’t line up with him, it’s getting difficult.
Though I like the original, I find Spanish Alan Moore to be more delightful.
At first, I thought, “Alan Moore is Hagrid??”
But then I saw the hat. Tom Bombadil!
That sketch was just great! And they did a good work with the subtitles too XD
She tried to steal a similar document from Warren Ellis, but inside the envelope was just a big sheet of blotter acid.
Nah, that was Grant Morrison.
… Why is Robin sharing this with Jacob, though? He’s a Spider-Man fan, which is a Marvel property. Wouldn’t Ethan be more concerned about a possible plan to save DC?
I’m sure he’s still interested in the “Distinguished Competition.”
I’d guess because its Alan Moore she’s talking about. Even if you’re not a DC fan, all comic fans can’t help but be interested in him, considering all the things he’s contributed to the industry.
I don’t think that’s Alan Moore’s work.
Or he could be just trolling anyone who would break into his safe deposit box.
That Sounds more like Alan Moore!
Wouldn’t he do that with some kind of black magic spell?
The comic book-rape IS the black magic spell. By reading it, you activate it. Like Explosive Runes, only it kills your brain instead of your face.
Alan Moore is an nth level necromantic raptor with tiger blood, so it is possible.
Willis should watch out, else he spontaneously find himself getting raped by giant burly she-men!
Wow. Someone else interprets the mid to late 80′s and early 90′s transformation of comics about the same as I did.
I thought it would be gratifying but it kind of hurts.
See, I saw a bunch of videos of Alan Moore where he did an interview with people where he wasn’t being baited to show off his anger or the like. Moore’s actually pretty calm and likeable when you’re not TRYING to get a rise out of him.
He’s still wrong about a lot of things, but he also has a lot of good things to say about the industry and aside from Neonomicon (which I haven’t read) you’d be hard-pressed to find an Alan Moore comic that was actually all that bad.
I think he said he wrote it because he had to pay taxes and needed money quickly.
Not sure if he was joking though.
I think that was Neil Gaiman’s excuse for Beowulf. Or something like that. About insurance.
I dunno man. He did Badrock vs. Violator, and that was preeeety bad.
See I thought that was Frank Millar’s plan?
No no, that one’s “Replace every character and every word with Whores.”
Although it’s in Frank Miller language so it says, “WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES”
and of course “I’m the goddamn Batman!”
No discussion of Frank Miller can complete with out a reference to All star Batman and Robin!
“I’m the goddamn whore!”
*Bursts through the door with a stopwatch*
…I thought it was Miller Time.
No. Miller is whores. Moore is rape. Ennis is man-on-man rape.
Actually, properly written that should be:
“He sickens me. Sickens me. Miller is nothing but whores. Whores, and the smell of a dark, desperate city, crying out at night. With whores.”
It means the same thing, but translated to Miller-speak.
Crap, I forgot to add: “Dick Grayson, twelve years old” to that.
Try and slip in a “Love chunks” or “I’m on a date with Bruce Wayne!” while you’re at it.
In the next issue of ‘Mazing Man Extreme: Hawk Girl grows a penis and kills Darkseid with it but accidently cuts off the Flash’s arm in the process. But, it’s okay because he gets a cyborg “speed hook” from New New Genesis to replace it. Meanwhile Green Arrow’s literal melee battle with cancer continues in a secret lab deep below the sewers of Star City.
No, no, no, that’s Grant Morrison.
I thought they already did that.
I’m picturing it all neatly formatting and centred in the page in size 12 font.
THANK YOU, DAVID WILLIS.
Seriously. As big a Moore fan as I am, he really needs to quit it with the whole rape-as-character-motivator thing.
Am I missing something? There’s Watchmen, and…what else?
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. There’s a sexual assault, or attempt thereof, at least twice per volume, on average.
First link on Google about the subject. “Top 5″ isn’t praise here, in case you’re wondering.
Thanks for that. Interesting read!
Alan Moore gave comics gifts we can never repay, but he’s been steadily leaking gravitas for the last few years, as he can no longer resist the urge to comment on an industry that he refuses to follow. He was doing so well for so long: he’d tell his old stories and just wrap it up with “but that’s in the past and I don’t want to discuss it any further.”
Now that’s no longer enough. Now the fact that DC’s using one of his Green Lantern ideas (in addition to many of their own) has got to be “evidence” of their creative bankruptcy, all the people writing the comics that he doesn’t read must be talentless hacks, writing a Batman story is utterly immoral because some Batman creators have been poorly treated by DC, and he has only contempt for anyone who doesn’t realize these obvious conclusions that it took him himself about five years to draw.
Creators HAVE been poorly treated, but two wrongs don’t make a right.
This “SECRET plan to save DC Comics” is just the icing on the cake. “Forget everything I just said about how writing corporate superheroes is depraved and cowardly– I could write your corporate superheroes MUCH BETTER than you have, so that your audience would now be EXPANDING despite the basic economics of the direct market. But you alienated me, you fools, so I’m not telling you how. You’ll just have to trust me. Because we have a relationship built on trust.”
I shouldn’t say anything about this at all: whenever I do, someone generally accuses me of being a whiny, privileged fanboy who only cares about getting a new X-FORCE comic. But that’s not why I care. It saddens me to see a great man tarnish his reputation. And it worries me, because I consciously imitated Alan in some ways, getting into the business. Now I have to make sure not to imitate him, in other ways.
Oops. Well, I’m not copy-pasting this to the main reply thread. You all can deal, I’m sure.
I must admit, after reading your post, I had to double check your name…which for an instant I mistook for ‘ECampbell’…
…now I need to go read From Hell again and collect all of the creative juices that leak from my eyes during the next 24 hours.
http://www.ghastlycomic.com/ Nuff said.
Prbably not safe for work, totaly not safe for snaity
Its important to remember that while it is worthy to pick someone whose achievements you wish to match and whose footsteps you would like to follow professionally, one does not try to emulate the entire person. I have the opposite problem, then you however, where I feel I may be matching those I emulate in scientific abilities (I’m a paleontologist) but definitely not in humility.
If he is leaking gravitas then he should start wearing adult diapers.
In addition to the ones listed above, there’s also Neonomicon, where the protagonist being repeatedly raped (including by a Deep One) is a major plot point, and Lost Girls, where both Wendy and Alice’s stories feature rapes, and, for good measure, he throws in a bit of incest in Dorothy’s.
In Alan Moore’s Top Ten he had the best and most popular super hero group, the equivalent of the JLA, turn out to be a long time child molester ring and all their young side kicks were passed around. Also it was implied that most of their adventures were faked. They just liked hanging out and screwing kids. And they tried to have those who spoke up about it killed.
Swamp Thing, as well. Both Swamp Thing and Abby are raped in very disturbing storylines.
Apropos of nothing…
But I just noticed that none of the Shortpacked! staff’s name tags have names on them. Are those name tags? Why am I suddenly concerned about this after reading the comic for like a year and a half?
I’m just gonna go over here now…
I don’t think he’s said why, but I’m going to go with, “Too annoying to draw every time,” as my guess.
They’d just be indecipherable little squiggles at that size anyway.
Galasso insists that every employee must wear a name tag but failed to mention adding a name to the said tag.
Loopholes are great.
You raise an excellent point.
That actually sounds like a very Galasso thing to do.
It is isn’t it.
galasso: “they have names?”
The badges all just say “Peon.”
No, “Apropos of Nothing” was Peter David.
One of my favourite books and I regret that I didn’t buy the English version original of the German translation. The translators seemingly butchered it in the progress and so I’m now considering buying the book again, but this time in English together with the sequels.
Do so. Immediately.
Puns don’t translate well, so I can only imagine what must’ve happened to PAD’s writing.
Thought that the current plan anyway.
Moore’s coming off more as adorable than infuriating in this anyway, but I think some of the comments he’s made about the artists working on the prequels were a little rude, even for the whole situation. Those guys are professionals, and say what you will about the concept of Watchmen prequels, but DC picked some top talent for them.
Are you sure its not really Rush Limbaugh’s box???
Rush Limbaugh is a comicbook writer now?
I see nothing in the box that specifies comic books.
That sounds more like Frank Miller than Alan Moore…
And this is why I should read other comments before making the easy jokes. Sigh.
It sounds like you’ve read very little Alan Moore, if that’s what you believe he would do. He’s argued for years about corporate owned comics needing to go in the opposite direction.
It would be about as accurate if I made a comic about David Willis being a total homophobe who wanted to add more gay bashing to all comics.
Um, read an Alan Moore comic. Any comic. Very good odds he’s got a rape in it.
Please. Two of the examples in that “Top 5 rape scenes” list didn’t even have rape in them.
Which two? I’ll give you The Killing Joke (although the scene can be read as sexually violent). But all the other four feature attempted or consumated rape.
I think the fact that such a list exists speaks more volumes than you’re giving it credit for.
Yeah, because no one ever put anything up on the internet that was wrong.
There are two attempted rapes, two completed rapes (one of which kills the victim), and one assault that’s so sexually charged, that despite Moore’s insistence that it’s not a rape, it’s pretty much invariably taken as such.
Yeah, The Killing Joke didn’t have rape! All it had was the Joker crippling Barbara Gordon so he could undress her and take multiple photos of her naked body from several angles as she begged for him to stop.
Yeah, it didn’t have rape. Turns out nudity isn’t synonymous with sexual activity.
I notice no one ever points to the fact that Commissioner Gordon was also stripped nude.
It seemed pretty clear that Moore had the Joker attempt to dehumanize his victims. One of the easiest ways to convey that is to strip the victim down of the the thing that separates us from the animal world most distinctly – clothing.
Now you can debate whether that is good writing or bad, effective or ineffective, but to say that it’s a form of sexual behavior? Simply because they’re nude? That’s baseless and it’s projection.
Oh my god, are you the Joker’s lawyer?
I don’t know. Are you Gotham’s District Attorney?
You lobbed the accusation. Don’t blame me if the accusation doesn’t seem to have any merit. If you have something beyond “OMG She was nakeds!” to imply that the scene was one of sexual violence, then let’s hear it.
“SOME of this stuff is rape, but the rest is ONLY violent, humiliating, and dehumanizing assault!”
Since I guess you needed a snarkier version of what I already said.
I said nothing about the “lawful definition”. Not anywhere. I’m taking issue with the casual conflation of the scene in question and rape.
The scene combines violence and nudity towards men and women. where does it clearly associate the nudity with sexuality.
If you’re saying that the comic whose subject matter was specifically about the deranged homicidal psychotic is symptomatic of a larger concern because the character in question behaved in exactly the monstrous way that was outlined in his original appearances dating back the greater part of a century, then I don’t know what to tell you. Did the character engage in psychological torture? Yes. Did he brutally dehumanize his victims? Yes. Was that the entire point of the story? Yes.
It’s a story about the motivations of a serial killer written specifically for adults. I’d like to know where exactly the “larger problem” is here.
I have the first ten volumes of Batman Chronicles, which collects all Batman comic stories in chronological order starting from the beginning. Mostly Joker just shoots people and laughs a lot. At no point does he strip folks naked and have them led around by little people to show them photos of their naked, crippled daughters. Your insinuation that Joker was “always like this” is bullshit. Nor does it matter. Lots of things were “like this before,” but that’s a terrible excuse to continue doing it if it’s sucky or insulting. It isn’t okay to keep on drawing The Spirit’s partner Ebony the way Eisner did. It isn’t okay to have Billy Batson in blackface because he did it in the 40s.
And it’s still not okay to treat women as disposable artifacts in service to a story about dudes.
A “story written specifically for adults” doesn’t have to have rape in it. I don’t think nobody should write about rape, but I do think it should be dealt with appropriately, and not tacked into a story just to make it more adult and totally sweet. That’s not actually all that adult. It’s just juvenile, like a child excessively dropping the F-bomb because he thinks he’ll get more respect. The difference between being a child and being an adult is the acquisition of empathy for other people’s feelings and experiences. If you’re going to write a rape, I think it’s important to tackle the subject with that empathy, rather than just giving us the sweet scene of it happening and dropping the issue once the sweet scene is finished. And when the aftermath is tackled, it’d be nice if it didn’t result in the rapee falling in love with her rapist, like in Watchmen. Which is absolutely terrible and insulting to humanity in general.
When you write a series of rapes and all you depict are the acts of rape and none of the aftermath except to show that sometimes if you rape a lady she might like it, that’s a problem. And it’s a problem that’s symptomatic of the society we live in. And we need to stop bending over backwards to say it’s not all that bad, and that it’s okay that it exists because it’s An Adult Story, and that if you’re writing An Adult Story, that excuses anything. Because it doesn’t. And we should be ashamed.
“I have the first ten volumes of Batman Chronicles, which collects all Batman comic stories in chronological order starting from the beginning. Mostly Joker just shoots people and laughs a lot.”
You mean you missed his first appearance where he would publicly announce his murders in advance and leave the terrified victims awaiting their impending grisly murder? That’s psychological torture, and it’s very much in the same camp as what the Joker does in Killing Joke. Just because it’s not the literal same act does not mean it’s not the same type of behavior.
“At no point does he strip folks naked and have them led around by little people to show them photos of their naked, crippled daughters.”
And yet his earliest appearances and this story both revolve around psychological torture. The Joker even explains this as his point in Killing Joke – to try and psychologically break the Commissioner.
“Your insinuation that Joker was “always like this” is bullshit. Nor does it matter. Lots of things were “like this before,” but that’s a terrible excuse to continue doing it if it’s sucky or insulting.”
So the critically acclaimed best selling Killing Joke is “sucky” because you don’t like it? You’re welcome to your opinion, but it’s a minority one.
“And it’s still not okay to treat women as disposable artifacts in service to a story about dudes.”
Y’know what? That’s bullshit. Barbara Gordon is no more and no less “disposable” in the story than is her father. Like her father, Barbara exhibits enormous strength of character that the Joker can neither conceive of nor match.
Even if what you say were true to this particular story, the notion that certain approaches to storytelling are off limits because they make some people uncomfortable is nonsense. Sometimes a story will result in the female characters being treated as you describe. Sometimes a story will call for men being treated as you describe. Not all stories are required to meet some arbitrary level of equal treatment – and a failure to meet this arbitrary level does not dictate quality.
“A “story written specifically for adults” doesn’t have to have rape in it. I don’t think nobody should write about rape, but I do think it should be dealt with appropriately, and not tacked into a story just to make it more adult and totally sweet.”
Except this story doesn’t have rape – so obviously I wasn’t discussing rape when I stated that this story was for adults. What I was referring top was the Joker’s brutality – which as repeatedly explained does not include any inherent sexuality. Again, nudity does not equal sexuality.
“That’s not actually all that adult. It’s just juvenile, like a child excessively dropping the F-bomb because he thinks he’ll get more respect.”
Even if you were properly assigning my argument about “adult” you would still be wrong. I stated the book was FOR adults, not that the content was inherently mature. I’m well aware of the difference.
“The difference between being a child and being an adult is the acquisition of empathy for other people’s feelings and experiences. If you’re going to write a rape, I think it’s important to tackle the subject with that empathy, rather than just giving us the sweet scene of it happening and dropping the issue once the sweet scene is finished. And when the aftermath is tackled, it’d be nice if it didn’t result in the rapee falling in love with her rapist, like in Watchmen. Which is absolutely terrible and insulting to humanity in general.”
Let’s be clear on this. Nowhere in Watchmen is it suggested that the victim fell in love with her rapist. She had sex with him again – possibly more thgan once. But she also clearly had anger towards him. In fact, all we ever actually see on page is that anger, minus a small amount of sadness over his death. Not exactly “in love with her rapist”.
And so what? You do realize that things like this actually happen? Right? Horrible and disturbing things happen every day. They aren’t always wrapped up in a neat bow. No writer has any responsibility to ensure that they only portray the terrible things that happen in a certain light.
“When you write a series of rapes and all you depict are the acts of rape and none of the aftermath except to show that sometimes if you rape a lady she might like it, that’s a problem.”
In the case of Watchmen, there was more to the aftermath than you suggest. In the immediate sense there was the brutal beating of the Comedian. Then there was his being cut from the group. If I recall correctly it was then explained that Sally Jupiter either chose or was pressured to not press charges because of the bad press. A horrible, but very real thing that does actually happen – Particularly when you consider the era being depicted.
Then you have the lies told to the daughter, who spent decades of her adult life hating her father because her mother was too ashamed to tell the full story. You have the horror of the daughter when she realizes the truth. You have her coming to terms with this fact of life.
So yeah, there was a lot more than what you inaccurately describe as “falling in love with her rapist”.
“And it’s a problem that’s symptomatic of the society we live in. And we need to stop bending over backwards to say it’s not all that bad, and that it’s okay that it exists because it’s An Adult Story, and that if you’re writing An Adult Story, that excuses anything. Because it doesn’t. And we should be ashamed.”
About twenty years ago I was writing a comic book about awful people. Terrible people. One of them happened to be gay. He wasn’t terrible because he was gay, mind you. He just happened to be gay. His homosexuality wasn’t a focus even. But I drew criticism because I was portraying a homosexual in a negative light. My explanation was that I portraying EVERY character in a negative light – The book was about horrible, shallow people doing horrible, shallow things. I was then told that I should not include a homosexual character because it would reinforce negative opinions of homosexuals.
The arguments direct at me then were virtually synonymous with what you argue now. And time has not made it any more correct.
No one should dictate to writers what they should write. If you don’t want to read something, then don’t read it. But the idea that artists should bend their artistic vision to the shifting opinions of what is proper should never be enforced or encouraged. The idea that you may only show certain types of scenes in a certain light should not happen. For one thing it’s a terrible slippery slope that just a few decades would have argued against your own strip.
One of the last things we see in Watchmen is Jupiter Senior tearfully kissing a photo of the Comedian, leaving her own lipstick on it.
To the rest, please stop defending rape culture and crafting false equivalences between what happens to males and females in pop culture. It’s absolutely disgusting, and toes the line of what I find acceptable on my own website. I would ask that you please drop the issue, and stop saying all these things about how sweet and compelling rape is just to defend some dude’s comic book story. It reflects on you terribly, and I don’t want any of that grossness splashing over on me.
Except that none of what you mention inherently implies SEXUAL assault. And that’s the repeated failure here, to assign a sexual aspect where none is implicit.
I don’t want to shock anyone here, but the Joker is actually a bad guy. A bad guy who does bad things. A guy who murders, poisons, tortures, cripples, and most importantly, psychologically screws with his victims. That was his M.O. from day one and Killing Joke is logically consistent with this.
So is what the Joker did terrible? Yes. Is that the point of the story?
YES! Does this make it rape or synonymous with rape?
But I have never said it was the lawful definition of rape. That is something you continue to ascribe to me. I have only suggested it’s an outlying symptom of the larger problem.
“One of the last things we see in Watchmen is Jupiter Senior tearfully kissing a photo of the Comedian, leaving her own lipstick on it.”
And yet we still see her anger and her hate and all the other repercussions of that single event. You can’t just dismiss that aspect of the story. They did actually transpire.
“To the rest, please stop defending rape culture and crafting false equivalences between what happens to males and females in pop culture.”
I did no such thing.
[...]and stop saying all these things about how sweet and compelling rape is just to defend some dude’s comic book story.”
And once again, I obviously did no such thing.
“It reflects on you terribly, and I don’t want any of that grossness splashing over on me.”
YOU putting false words in my mouth reflects on ME terribly? How does that work exactly?
Look, I get that this makes you uncomfortable. But at this point you’re simply attaching things to me that I in no way stated. Rape is “sweet” and “compelling”? Are you just trolling me now?
I will happily drop the issue of the comic, but you can’t seriously expect me to stop responding to you while you’re making insultingly false claims about my argument.
We disagree on some points. Fine. But to claim that I find rape “sweet” and “compelling”? That’s takes disingenuous to an absurd level.
Oh my crap, you’re that same guy who was arguing against the existence of false equivalences on the False Equivalence strip. No wonder. Now I have to fight the urge to ban you just to get the stink of you off my website.
Between us, you’re the one who continually makes this dialog personal. While you’re fighting the urge to ban me, could you perhaps fight the urge to lob insults about? Yeah, I hold differing perspectives to what you seem to believe in. Is that cause to advance personal attacks?
Dude, you’ve been attacking people and calling them “delusional” since the very start. I wash my hands of you.
Actually, looking back you’re right. My tone came off much more hostile than I intended. For that I apologize.
Though I’m not sure why you commented back to me after banning me. I mean, who is that comment intended for?
Anyway, I am sorry if I came off hostile. I didn’t realize I had until you suggested as such.
“Um, read an Alan Moore comic. Any comic. Very good odds he’s got a rape in it.”
That would really prove your point, if it wasn’t obviously hyperbolic bullshit. Every issue of Swamp Thing? Every issue of Miracle Man? Every issue of Tom Strong? Every issue of Top Ten? Every issue of Watchmen? V for Vendetta? Every Doctor Who story he wrote? Every 2000 AD story? Every Superman story? Every Issue of Supreme? How about all that non-stop rape in Tomorrow Stories?
So I’ll take those odds and you will lose. Badly. Does rape occasionaly happen in his comics? Yes. But saying that this is a go-to for Alan Moore is like saying that infidelity is a go-to in Shortpacked because it’s occasionally occurred.
The phrase used was “every comic”, not “every issue of every comic”. (And Doctor Who is a comic now?) The fact that you feel the need to move the goalposts should tell you something – I’m certainly taking it as a data point in favor of the other side.
And for an example of true hyperbole, look at your last paragraph. A more accurate comparison would be to say that gayness is a go-to in Shortpacked! – which may explain why people joke nowadays that if it’s a Willis comic, then somebody’s probably gay (or everyone is).
Except DoA! Ethan. We’re not sure about him.
There are Doctor Who comics, mostly published in Britain (for obvious reasons), and Moore did write for them. Gaiman too IIRC.
“Hey now! There were totally X issues of Watchmen without rape” seems like an odd angle to take. It seems to assume that the default position for a writer is having a shit-ton of rapes in their bibliography and we should pay more attention to all those issues of his comics that didn’t have rape.
The implication here IS that Alan Moores approach is to put more rape in everything. Or as it as been further said, odds that ANY Alan Moore comic you randomly pickup will include rape.
For Watchmen the actual odds are 1 in 12. If you add up every comic Moore has written versus how many actually have rape, what kind of odds are we actually talking about? I in 500? 1 in 1000? More?
So it’s hyperbolic bullshit to claim that the odds are strong that any random Alan Moore comic will include rape.
“Don’t you realize how many chapters this author can go without raping anyone? What? Of course these chapters are self-contained and in no way part of a larger narrative. Certainly it’s not as if these rapes are ever a prevalent plot point after the initial occurrence of the event, not that it would matter since having rape in them clearly refers the the occurrence of the actual event rather than the presence of the subject matter”
Split hairs much?
Except that in most instance the comics aren’t “chapters” and aren’t part of a “larger narrative”. Regardless you completely fail to miss the point. How many rapes are there in Moore’s work? How many in his Doctor Who books? How many in 2000AD. How many in his Superman stories? How many in his Green Lantern stories?
You seriously think it’s reasonable to suggest that if you pick up a random Alan Moore comic you will see rape? If so, you are delusional.
Looking back, I realize I was posting in a dick-ish manner. I stand by my opinions, but not the way I presented them. Sorry.
No, the phrase was “any comic”. If you’re going to try to correct someone, you might want to read what was actually written. I even included a quote, so how you misunderstood so deeply is a bit of a mystery.
Let’s be doubly clear. A comic book is a single issue, often around 22 pages. A comic series is something else entirely.
You claim I’m “moving the goalposts”? Bullshit. I’m simply using our shared language accurately. Do yourself a favor and try to do the same.
And yes, Doctor Who comics have been coming out for decades. Moore wrote many, and none of them had any rape – just like the vast majority of his published work.
I realise I’m coming in late and possibly splitting hairs and all that….
But looking at your list (and seeing as Swamp Thing has been asserted as having had a rape during Moore’s run, also the Top Ten thing mentioned elsewhere) and looking at the list of ‘Top 5′ scenes, I do notice one thing…
Barring ‘The Killing Joke’, the listed rapes are mostly from his own works, rather than work-for-hires where he does not own/create the characters.
And I do have to wonder how many people discovered his work the way I did, through trade paperbacks. Sure, any particular issue of League of Extraordinary Gentleman might not contain rape, but when you read the whole thing as one entity, you don’t tend to notice the individual issues of the comic.
So, overall, I can see how people perceive he includes ‘a lot of rape and/or sexual violence’, considering that his best known works (I’d never even heard of Top Ten or Tomorrow Stories) have something along those lines show up in the course of the entire story.
People may discover the books through collected editions, but in most cases they were written as single issues. And in some instances during a time before collected editions were commonplace.
So it’s not in every single issue of every comic he has written, but it is in a number of the overall stories he has told, especially the ones that have been his own projects.
A very small number of stories he hast told, when you look at his complete body of work.
The percentage is minimal, though how many people have read all his 2000AD work or his Doctor Who stories or every issue of Swamp Thing (most of which were one off stories)?
You know, I’m pretty sure you’re not doing what Willis ascribes to you, but I’m not sure you’re really comprehending the other side in any case.
I agree that Moore has had rape present in several of his higher profile pieces. I mean, it’s not really debatable. But as an author his body of work extends far past those select works. The contention I was responding to claimed that if you pick up any random Moore comic, odds are strong it will include rape. That isn’t true.
Even if we go with the assumption that random comic means a random comic story (as in one complete story told in multiple parts), this still isn’t true. If we drop the description down to any story told under the same umbrella title, it’s still not true. Odds remain that – when looking at Moore’s vast overall body of work – you will not randomly encounter rape.
Unfortunately, his most popular work has often included rape. And that seems to be enough for some to declare it as something found in the majority of his work.
Ah, so my point was not lost.
You might find that people are conflating ‘most popular work’ with the ‘vast body’ of his work. In other words, they assume the things they know him for are all he’s done. I mean, I think I knew he’d written for Swamp Thing, and I think I knew he created Constantine, but that wasn’t something I knew consciously. If someone had asked me a week ago who created Constantine, I’d have stared blankly.
And I’ve never heard of the rest of his work. But League? Watchmen? V for Vendetta? Those I know.
… mostly due to the movies, sadly.
Sadly, being one of the best known comic book writers means very little. Moore has distanced himself from the film adaptations of his work – but I personally believe that the films simply extend his exposure.
Not everything Moore has written has been to my taste. His more all-ages work probably being my favorite. His various Superman stories are excellent. His work on Supreme as well. Jack B. Quick, Greyshirt and some of the other ABC Comics stuff… all strong quality. Swamp Thing is a brilliant series in general, as is Moore’s 2000 AD work.
The guy has been extremely prolific, but unfortunately we live in the age of hyperbole. Most people probably don’t literally mean that Moore includes rape in everything – even if that’s what they actually say. However, that degree of hyperbole is terribly misleading, particularly when we have a culture that often chooses not to use the search tools available at their fingertips.
It’s very strange to have watched Moore ascension – where he really did deconstruct and rebuild the creative end of the industry – and the beginning of his decline – the point where his innovative work has so deeply permeated into modern artists that the original looks watered down and is easily dismissed – The notion that is both shocking and sad.
Frankly, if Moore claims to have had an approach that would have saved DC Comics, then he probably did have something worth seeing. Given how outspoken he has historically been against mainstream comics emulating the patterns laid out in comics that were written specifically for adults (during a time when Watchmen and Dark Knight were the aberrations rather than the norm), it is very unlikely that these books would have included any level of sexual violence.
Instead, it is very likely we wouldn’t have to see a character like Starfire become little more than a vapid sex toy, or have spent several years watching a teenage Supergirl make out with her boyfriend in the air while wearing a thong underneath her miniskirt for the world to see.
Moore distancing himself from DC Comics hurt the entire industry.
Look at LoEG: Century 1969. Look at Neonomicon. They both include rape. They aren’t relics of the ’80′s, when Moore wrote Swamp Thing #60 (wherein the protagonist is abducted and raped to death by an alien). They are his most recent works, released last year.
I’d actually like a link to whatever article said he’d argued against including rape in comics, because if he did say that then it demonstrates a profound lack of self-awareness on his part.
I never said he argued against rape specifically. He spoke out against the grim and gritty trend for all mainstream comics.
Look at all the comics he wrote rape over the course of his career. That would be most of them.
He probably wants it to go in the opposite direction because the corporations only permit one rape per six issues.
Didn’t DC already dip their toes in that approach back during Identity Crisis…? Poor Sue Dibney…
Great one! I’m gonna show this to my wife (she thinks that Alan Moore is a scumbag).
Conformation bias for the win!
…Or something like that.
And now, a new project scripted by Moore and Miller together: THE RAPEWHORES.
It’s “The Aristocrats” of the 21th century.
Confession: I inexplicably misparsed that as a reference to the Disney animated movie “The Aristocats.”
My brain has now become a terrifying place.
Hehee – It should not be that terrifying since that particular place has a surprisingly large, though introverted and quiet residency.
- yes I read it exactly the same way and thought it was just a typo -
As I understand it, a large portion of sex in the animal kingdom could be defined as rape. Don’t cats have barbed penises specifically to prevent the female from being able to stop until the male cat wants to? Now try watching the Aristocrats with THAT in mind.
(my science could be off. If so, um, sorry.)
Don’t cats have barbed penises specifically to prevent the female from being able to stop until the male cat wants to?
No. The barbs seem to be part of sperm competition (forcing out sperm left by males who mated them earlier), and also trigger the female’s ovulation. (If the male does anything to restrain the female, it’s the biting of her scruff, but I’ve never seen any indicator that the female requires restraining during the mating act.)
You may be confusing the barbs on the female penis with the knot of the canine penis, which does serve to hold the female and male together – after the actual mating is done.
*feline penis. Wow…silly typo, there…
Hmm, interesting, I didn’t know that.
Grant Morrison recently called Moore out on this tendency. Not that Morrison’s innocent, mind you- he retconned Bruce and Talia’s rendezvous to nonconsensual, for one- but it’s still notable that he pointed it out.
Even Top Ten’s SMAX, my current favorite Alan Moore comic, has a rape in the backstory of the protagonist.
On another note, Robin’s smile in panel two is gleefully maniacal.
Wow, I would not have expected Moore-fanboy Morrison to do that.
But they’ve already done that.
moores famous plan was the twlight of the gods storyline- its online if you want to read it and …..yes well no rape just s&m i think
There’s sexual violence. The main plot is about an underage boy murdered via erotic asphyxiation.
Whoops, I checked the outline, and I was wrong; he dies of a broken neck. I’d still argue that it’s sexual violence, since he is killed by a dominatrix during a SM session, but yeah.
Isn’t “DC” short for “Doomed Comics?” Just kidding. *sigh*
DC in my mind will always be “Distinguished Competition”. I was a Marvel kid growing up.
Say, if Marvel refers to DC as the Distinguished Competition, then what does DC refer to Marvel as?
“Those dirtbags who ninja’d the copyright for the name ‘Captain Marvel’ from us”?
I’m not sure if DC owned the Fawcett characters when Marvel introduced Captain Marvel… they certainly weren’t using him if they were.
You have to remember- The Billy Batson Captain Marvel are the guys DC sued into bankruptcy because Captain Marvel was too similar to Superman (and was selling just as well or better.)
Okay, here’s how it went down:
Fawcett Comics create Billy Batson. They secured the “Captain Marvel” trademark.
DC sues Fawcett into oblivion. Fawcett stops printing Billy Batson comics. The trademark lapses.
Marvel creates Mar-Vell and secures the “Captain Marvel” trademark.
DC Comics buys Fawcett and starts printing Billy Batson comics.
DC sues Marvel for the “Captain Marvel” trademark and loses.
Yep, that sounds like the plans of that overhyped, talentless hack.
Now, I agree that Moore uses way more rapes-per-capita than he should, but I wouldn’t call him talentless. He’s one of the best comics craftsmen out there. And overhyped? Probably, but even without the hype, he’s one of the best there is. Just a little too rape-y.
It’s either this or Frank Miller’s Whorestravaganza.
Yeah but seriously, I don’t much care for Moore’s works. I’ll admit they are pretty well made and thoughtful, but I don’t find them entertaining or agree with the worldviews he drowns his comics in.
Here is an idea for Superman if that was to happen. Bizarro becomes a rapist and pins the blame on Superman.
I guess that Moore must have already told Lee and Didio his idea.
“Put more rape in everything” is an anagram for “Vampire Preying Thereunto.”
It’s Mandrakk. He wants them to put a stake through Dan DiDio’s heart.
“Put more rape in everything” is an anagram for “Vampire Preying Thereunto.”
There is something really poetic about this sentence.
How about taking a cue from Encylopedia Britannica and just stop printing the damn things?
Well technically that’s not what it said on the piece of paper. Robin was just summarizing a popular theory, you see.
My fan edit: http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6049/moregiygasineverything.jpg
That’s actually kind of brilliant.
Jacob looks like a fish.
I like to think his Atlantean origins will take center stage in the next story arc.
Is he from a Massachusetts town called Innsmouth by any chance?
That does sound like good old Allen. XD
Alan Moore is overrated.
The sad thing is that it’s not really an exaggeration.
Aren’t they already doing that?
Man, where are all these “Aren’t they already doing that?” comments coming from? Did one of the New 52 feature rape and I didn’t notice? Are people just referring to pre-n52 comics that I’ve already forgotten about?
I think it’s a general reference to the sexual exploitativeness and grim and grittiness in the n52, rather than specific rapes. But I’ve only read about them online too, so I don’t have first hand experience, so I probably shouldn’t be answering, sooo… Yeah.
It’s also a metaphorical use of the word, as in ‘raping’ a character’s personality/backstory/motives/etc for the sake of making them different and ‘more edgy/titillating.’
Yeah, that word gets overused, though- it’s incredibly demeaning to someone who’s actually experienced rape or sexual assault to liken George Lucas making a change in a movie or Michael Bay making a version of Transformers you didn’t like to someone raping you. Yes, people use hyperbole, I know that when someone says they’re “literally starving” that probably doesn’t mean they’re literally starving, but it just rubs me the wrong way. As violated as you may feel by a company going in a different direction with a character you love, it’s not rape.
If that’s his plan, it won’t work…. being told it had yet another rape scene is why I DIDN’T buy the last League of Extraordinary Gentleman book, despite me being a bit of a Moore fan. Twice in a row in two very slim volumes seemed a bit much somehow.
Now, lets see how Frank Millars plans to use hookers to bring down the price of oil by $1….
I think he concocted that plan to bring down DC.
I don’t know, you can come very far with rape – at least in the music scene.
The description of rape, that is. I hate it when my comments imply things I didn’t mean.
Those two comments made ma laugh, thanks!
I love many of Alan Moore’s stories and thought Watchmen was fantastic.
But yeah, Alan Moore and rape, almost as bad as Frank Miller and hos.
shock tactics, they’re just like surprise tactics, they might work once or twice but they are not a reliable foundation.
See, I don’t think Moore intends it as a shock tactic- he’s a master craftsman, and every time there’s a rape or sexual assault in his books, it is well-integrated into the story and character. Rather, I think that for some reason, the way Moore’s mind works, rape just seems like an even that can create a lot of interesting and compelling stories.
And in a way, that makes it even more disturbing. Every writer or artist has themes they return to time and again- but the fact that rape is Moore’s is just a little icky.
I get the distinct impression that this “secret plan” is basically the same as Richard Nixon’s “secret plan” for winning in Vietnam. Namely, “don’t even bother trying anymore, but give me power first”.
Seriously, I’m the only one who heard “I have a secret plan” and immediately thought of Tricky Dicky?
Nixon did have a plan: carpet bombing Vietnam with more explosives than were dropped in the whole of World War II.
Worst. Quaker. Ever.
Moore can go to hell, he is crazy and way too full of himself.
Heretic. He shall be taken upon the moment of his death unto Handpuppet Heaven by Our Lord and Master, Glycon.
All I’m left thinking is what would a sequel to Watchmen written by David Willis look like?
Mostly it would look like a bunch of synthetic alien guts everywhere.
That sounds awesome!
I have been playing ‘Space Marine’ way too much lately…
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