Apparently there’s not even one gay thug out there who wants to vocalize his demand for Batman’s desirable tush. I call shenanigans.
(It’s so hard to do Arkham City gags when Penny Arcade has already done the best possible one.)
Shortpacked! by David Willis
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I really need to play this game if this is seriously what happens.
But there are better reasons. Like being Batman.
He’s right. Who wouldn’t want to breathe in space?
‘Cept you can’t freaking GO to space in Arkham City. And Batman can’t breathe underwater.
Or you can watch the gameplay walkthroughs on youtube. i prefer ones with commentary from SSoHPKC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE8755wTswM
Happy Magnum Opus day! Now where do I get my fix of bipolar disorder?
I, um…yeah. ._. Think my line of humor has been crossed.
It’s actually somewhat accurate. >.> There’s no actual use of the word rape, but she’s called a bitch at least a few times every brawl.
Yeah, they never say rape, but they sure intimate(that word doesn’t work well in print) that someone’s gonna do it to Catwoman or Nora Fries(that name also doesn’t work well in print).
Hell, at one point, they even talk about what they’re going to do to Harley Quinn after the Joker is out of the picture.
How so?
The rape sound effect.
That kind of is the vibe that the game has when you play it as Catwoman. All “well, they’re criminals, of course they’d be crude!” comments aside, it makes the game just a wee bit uncomfortable for me.
Also reminds me why I’m a fan of Flash Rogues–they have…well, okay, not class, never class. But Cold comes down on ‘em like a ton of bricks if they go at a woman like that.
Idle thug chatter when you’re not in combat actually has someone say that, ‘Catwoman should be careful runnin’ around in that outfit; plenty of these guys ain’t seen a woman for months.’ Given the degenerate nature of a lot of the prisoners in Arkham, I don’t think this is even remotely above them. Not saying it’s a mindset of all the inmates, but it’s common enough that this doesn’t even faze me.
Besides, I’m just as worried about what a lot of them would do before/during/after the implied rape. Yeah, plenty of the thugs are from Blackgate and are your standard-fare criminals, but then there’s the super-psychos that were at Arkham Asylum. They might not even have rape on their minds; just, you know, skin-filleting and stealing eyeballs and whatnot.
Yeah, but the eyeball-stealing and skin-filleting isn’t quite as aimed specifically at a woman-because-she-is-a-woman.
I’m not saying it’s “out of character” for these thugs. They are thugs and you could argue any number of heinous crimes on on their record. I’m saying it gets to the point where it makes the game uncomfortable to play. Maybe not for menfolk who don’t hear those kind of slurs aimed at them in real life, but for me, personally…just seriously uncomfortable. You don’t always need to aim for “gritty-and-real” to get “realistic.”
It’s not, like, onomatopoeia, if that’s what you’re thinking.
The sad thing is that this is what happens when you play with catwoman -.-
Yanno what, I finally DID play the game, and I honestly don’t hear it. Maybe because I’m not looking for it? But even when I am, I don’t necessarily hear much of the bitch calling.
Oooor, maybe I’m too hypnotized by her hip-swaying, but whatever.
Hey, Ethan’s right. It is a completely different experience.
Sounds about right. >.>
If the game is really like that, I doubt that they will allow it in Australia.
All the gay thugs know that Batman’s written his number on a stall in the BAThroom, anyway, so they don’t have to get all excited about it.
Poor Snkrs
I’m guessing that Ethan did not have the Nightwing DLC.
You can’t collect Riddler trophies as Nightwing.
nor can you play as him in story mode, which it is implied that ethan is in the middle of. same goes with robin.
Middle of? If he’s able to switch to Catwoman at ease, I’d say he’s past the main game and just collecting the trophies and finishing up Catwoman’s end-quest also.
I’ve thought the same thing playing through the game. The language of those convicts…
I have a feeling I’m going to hate the answer, but exactly how accurate is the comic to the game’s dialog? I thought/hoped it was exaggerated for comic effect?
Well, the RapeRapeRape one is a fabrication, but the rest are pretty much direct quotes, as far as I recall.
Well, to hell with that game, then. And they wonder why female gamers like JRPGS and The Sims instead of EA’s latest “AAA” title… Well, no, I guess they don’t wonder, because female gamer dollars aren’t worth anything.
It’s, uh, kind of a sore point.
Well what do you expect? Hardened criminals are going to look at Catwoman and say “Pardon me madame, might I partake in courting you this evening?”?
Profanity is the refuge of an ignorant man.
it’s perfectly possible to be offensive without slamming “Bitch, bitch, bitch!” down our throats.
You’re absolutely right. Profanity is refuge of the ignorant man. Who do you think these hardened criminals are? Ivy League scholars?
To be fair, a surprising number of Batman’s foes seem to have PHDs, lol
Realism holds no instrinsic value. I’d say that the well justified discomfort of women with a medium of entertainment that objectifies the living hell out of them at every time and trivializes one of their worst case scenarios as a matter of course is a more important thing than ~Realistic Psychopaths~. I mean honestly, ask yourself, which one benefits us more?
My point is that you can keep the atmosphere just as creepy and the language just as violent without resorting to constant repetitive profanity.
Often moreso. The lack of profanity need not be noticeable.
The Joker doesn’t need to call someone a cunt yo be scary or threatening. All he needs a tutu, a ballgag and a goat.
Oh, well, as long as there’s justification for reducing women to sex objects, that makes it all better.
There are a lot of things I wouldn’t object to if they happened in a vacuum – Lara Croft’s increasing bust size, manly war games without a woman in sight, Catwoman being verbally degraded by convicts – but together, they create a hostile enviroment for girls and women and I’m really disgusted by this latest example. Can’t we have a powerful female character without sex being a major factor?
Yeah, cause having hardened criminals talk like hardened criminals is justification for sexism. It’s not to make the story and setting more realistic. I can agree with the New 52 backlash, but not with this.
No, dude. This is a game. It’s not real life. The developers chose what to put in the game, and they decided this was something they wanted to include. That didn’t happen in a vacuum.
God knows what I want in a game about a man dressing up as a bat to fight crime and breathe in space is REALISM. It seems like sexism/racism/whatever is always the only realism anyone’s concerned about keeping.
Realism holds no instrinsic value. I’d say that the well justified discomfort of women with a medium of entertainment that objectifies the living hell out of them at every time and trivializes one of their worst case scenarios as a matter of course is a more important thing than ~Realistic Psychopaths~. I mean honestly, ask yourself, which one benefits us more?
Gonna give you a hint, it’s the first one. We can lay off the SHE GONNA GET RAPED for five seconds without our immersion falling to pieces.
I’m simply saying that in real life, if Catwoman went up to a group of hardened convicts, I’m sure their cat calls (yes I went there) would be about the same.
Offensive or not, it’s pretty realistic. Plus it makes scratching their eyes out that much more satisfying.
In real life, Batman would be arrested by the police for vigilantism, and someone would have investigated into all these lookalike orphan boys that Bruce Wayne keeps adopting and taken them away to foster care. Why does real life only infringe on what women would like to see in the game, and not male fantasy?
Realistic doesn’t mean it’s necessary. Arkham Asylum didn’t have a single instance of it. In fact, in AA, the thugs were completely afraid of Harley, in this game, there’s rapey attitudes toward her too.
You’re seriously reading way too much into it. Let it go.
So are you saying that they should make the hardened criminals polite and non sexist so you won’t have to hear bad people saying bad things while you play a game centered around really bad people that say bad things? Seriously. Get a grip. I can understand wanting positive female portrayal, but some things delve into the other side of the extreme where you’re trying to make everything way too politically correct.
I grew up with multi-ethnic terrorist groups that had non-discrimination policies and 401k’s.
Reality is depressing. Games are supposed to be awesome.
Plus, they’re just words. You get to play as Catwoman, one of the most revolutionary comic book characters, due to her progressive strong portrayal in a time when there were no strong female characters (aside from Wonder Woman).
You get to jump around, use your whip, scratch faces, and all around beat the crap out of a bunch of MEN who only know how to drool and beat their chests.
In real life, the thugs would call Batman a lot worse names than “freak”. Real life has nothing to do with a Batman video game, so stop using it as a (terrible) excuse for the annoying writing trait please.
You know what else would be realistic? If, when you died, the game permanently locked itself out and you could never play again.
I’m not a huge feminist or anything, but as a woman, I can say they aren’t just words to me. That would make uncomfortable and I’d hit the mute button.
Yes, if I sit down to relax and play a video game, and that video game slams me with constant verbal abuse that is designed to make me feel dirty, ashamed, exposed, and frightened, I need to get over it because those are the same words I would hear on the street and it is therefore realistic. Never mind that I play video games to escape shitty real life.
There is nothing revolutionary about a woman with huge tits acting sexy while beating up bad guys. There’s something reactionary and creepy as fuck about it, but not revolutionary. Catwoman’s sexuality is for other people’s enjoyment, not her own. That plus the rape-y comments and constant cries of “U A BITCH” make it indefensible.
Ask yourself: if Batman and every other male protagonist ALWAYS wore a banana hammock and ALWAYS got cat-called and had lewd comments thrown at him… and then when you turned off the game and went into the real world you often got the same… would you really just shrug your shoulders and go “oh well”? Even after decades of that shit? Somehow I doubt it.
As others have said, it’s not about one aspect of one game. It’s that time and again, everyone goes for the cheap objectification of women. 99% of the time a woman is the lead only so you can be distracted from the crap gameplay by her ass jiggling as you sashay through the level (seriously, no flesh-and-blood woman moves that way unless she’s being paid for it). But that’s not even all that common! Girls are usually set pieces, living trophies to hang off the protagonists’ arms as the walking adolescent male power fantasies treat them like children. Even the phrase ‘women who kick ass’ has been subverted to mean ‘women who kick ass WHILE LOOKING SEXY FOR ME, THE GUY PLAYING THEM’ because some people cannot handle the idea that women can do anything else. And the craziest part of all is that the whole thing is self-defeating! Think about how many guys whine “I wish I knew a girl who played video games/likes my music/TV show/movie franchise/etc.” when it’s patently obvious that the few women who are willing to look past the constant barrage of “YOU ARE INFERIOR” are also going to keep quiet lest they be harassed by the slobbering creepazoids who make up the bulk of the fanbases for these things. Yet whenever anyone says “Gee, wouldn’t it be nice if sometimes women could be something OTHER than a streetwalker” in come the white knights to say that everyone needs to “lighten up” because “it’s just a game.” Well it’s just a comments page mate, so why aren’t you taking your own bloody advice?
tl;dr fuck off concern trolls, stop defending douche culture and grow the fuck up already
Queer here, JonX, and I have to say that I DO feel that way. I hear people use “faggot” both in casual conversation and to my face fairly often. Even if it’s not intentional homophobia, the gay characters in popular culture are all ridiculous stereotypes. I think it’s comparable to being objectified as a woman.
If the thugs in the game started calling a male character a fag, I’d probably be annoyed at the developers but mostly just take the opportunity to beat up some homophobes.
And that’s how I feel about this: it’s perhaps unfortunate that the developers chose to have the thugs act bad in this particular way, but it’s really not that big of a deal, since they’re clearly the VILLAINS. I’m with the people who were upset at Starfire and Catwoman’s portrayals in the recent comics, but this is just silly.
Ghost in the Shell pulled it off.
Pity the SAC game was so-so.
Didn’t femanist rally behind Bayonetta?
Not really. The designers brag about how much time they spent designing her ass and a lot of her special power moves require her to become naked however briefly.
And powerups involve her provocatively sucking on a lollipop. Bayonetta is a twenty-fetish pileup on the interstate. It’s sort of like how back in the ’90s “bad girl” characters like Barb Wire and Lady Death were claimed by their creators to be “strong female characters”.
I think the main issue is not so much the profanity, but the whole “Even though you’re tough and beating people down left and right, you’re still just a piece of ass.” Not to mention the fact that, as a female, the threat of rape is something that’s more part of your reality than it generally is for a male.
Men get raped just as much as women; it’s just that men rarely report it or the media doesn’t pick up on it. So, yeah, the threat of rape is either not much higher for females than males, or not higher at all.
I’m not saying men don’t get raped. I’m saying that the threat of it is more of a day to day reality for women. I don’t think that the possibility of rape is something that generally enters a man’s consciousness in day to day life unless it has happened to him or someone he knows. Most guys don’t worry about carrying mace or handbag sized tasers in case they are attacked. I’m not a guy, so I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think their parents sit them down as teens and warn them of the possibility of rape and situations to avoid.
As to rape statistics it’s something like 1 in 6 women and 1 in 33 men. Yes, men are less likely to report, but there are also women who don’t report it either. I think more that half of rape cases go unreported.
Men are not subject to rape culture the way that women are. Female portrayals are constantly filled with rape imagery. Women are constantly faced with direct and indirect threats of rape. That is why we get touchy about rape. Because the suggestion of rape NEVER STOPS for us. Because the seven out of every eight women who has not been physically raped knows what it is like to be threatened with it at every turn and it’s not something we can just brush off.
Yes. JRPGs. No sexism in there at all. No games with female characters in provocative poses eating giant sausages. No male protagonists calling giant tits “melons.” No girls stereotypically comparing breast sizes. No shower scenes or hot springs sidequests. Nope, just clean, wholesome, non-sexist fun, those JRPGs!
What, are we talking ero games and doujin projects or Final Fantasy and Tales?
Final Fantasy and Tales.
I don’t even play JRPGs, but Aeris getting stuffed in a refrigerator immediately springs to mind.
Aeris was not fridged. A lot of sketchy things have happened in JRPGs, Final Fantasy VII in particular, but Aeris being stuffed in a fridge is not one of them.
People who are fridged are usually killed in an awful way in order to shock the hero/spur them into action. We’re encouraged to feel sorrow at the hero’s pain, rather than feel sorrow for the actual character.
Aeris was murdered because she was a huge threat to Sephiroth’s plans, and the scene immediately following her shishkabobing establishes that Cloud only cares about his pain because Aeris will never be able to feel anything, pain or happiness or whatnot, ever again. What makes her death horrible is not who she was in relation to Cloud, but rather the fact that she was cut down in her prime, right as she was coming into her powers and learning about herself and the Cetra.
Her death doesn’t even move the plot along — it actually stonewalls it for a while because no one had any clue what in the world she was doing at the Forgotten Capital. Cloud already had a reason to hate Sephiroth and pursue him to the Northern Crater. Cloud was already messed with and mindscrewed to hell and back (and would get even worse even without anyone bringing his failure to save Aeris into the equation).
Aeris’s Jackspers Noirlecrow impression was a lot of things, including a great punch to the player’s feelings, but I honestly don’t think she was fridged. The tragedy of her death is about *her,* not Cloud.
god i shouldn’t be allowed to write stuff like this at one am i’m sorry if this is incomprehensible
Everyone knows that only hobags ride astride. Virtuous ladies ride sidesaddle!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfOpGVMULZ0
Nope, nothing sexist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXvf-TOjzhQ
Young girl straddling and squealing? Wholesome fun!
Google image search ‘Agarest War’: Wow, perfectly respectable female portrayal!
Perhaps you should reconsider the “JRPGs aren’t sexist” thing.
Have you played Final Fantasy XIII? Because it’s also the same game where the optimum party is made up of two strong female characters on the offensive (as a Ravager [mage class] and Commando [fighter class]) and a guy as the healer.
Vanille does have some pretty suggestive sounding battle sounds, but I fail to see how riding her eidolon is somehow meant to be taken sexually. Is riding a horse supposed to be this risque as well?
Have you played every single FF game up to date? Every single Tales game up to date?
Because if you’re just going by those videos, and condemn the whole series and all the games in them to be sexist…gee, talk about painting with a broad brush =P
“No girls stereotypically comparing breast sizes.”
To be fair, they actually do do that here. Japan’s approach to sexuality is somewhat…different…to the West.
A different, more flagrant brand of sexism yes. And the women there are often still quite indoctrinated.
No, when you’re playing as Catwoman those are pretty much direct quotes from the convicts when they notice Catwoman.
I don’t recall any of them calling out that they were going to rape her, but they do say everything else that was in the comic. Not very exaggerated at all.
Yeah, this bugged me a bit. With Batman everyone is all “It’s the Bat!”, followed by wetting themselves. With Catwoman, they are rather…forward.
Which makes clawing their faces off pretty satisfying, I must admit.
Well, Catwoman has never struck fear into the hearts of criminals like Batman has. And, like many people in the game say, they haven’t seen a woman in months.
Why not? Catwoman beats people up, has gone up against every person that Batman has, and has actually killed people. Why is she the less scary one?
id guess its cuz she does it less often and when she does its always less “crusade against evil” and more “you’re in my way”
Because counter to what Batman represents (vengeance/justice from the darkness), Catwoman is still basically a criminal. She may come out, karmically, on the good guys’ side more often than not, but that doesn’t change the fact that other criminals view her as a rival rather than the boogyman that Batman represents.
Okay but they are, statistically speaking, infinitely more likely to die when confronted with Catwoman. Not seeing the logic.
Or because guys playing the game identify with Batman, so they want him to be the biggest, the scariest, and respected by all. Catwoman, on the other hand . . . they don’t identify with her. Why should she get respect?
Yes. Use that broad paintprush. Tell all us guys what we’re thinking.
Sexism, indeed.
You’re thinking there has to be *some* reason why Batman is scarier than Catwoman, and magically one appears. You’re thinking there has to be *some* reason why people react to a hardened criminal and multiple murderer with derision instead of the fear a guy who’s known for never killing gets, and magically, one appears. You’re thinking that there has to be a *some* reason why criminals have to have realistic language when crudely commenting sexually on a female character, but can chuck that realism out the window when it comes to a male character.
I’m thinking it has more to do with inherent sexism than magical in-game continuity, and clearly I’m the sexist one.
I’m saying why there’s an in-universe explanation for that. I made no real-world claims. The developers could well be sexist, I dunno. And as someone has pointed out, some of the thugs made remarks about Bruce Wayne when he entered Arkham City. It was pretty loud.
You only hear what you want to hear. So yes, you’re sexist. You’re one of those people who cherry pick and then go “oh shit, sexism!” when people talk about how bad people should be saying bad things because that’s what bad people say.
On top of that, all your posts contain accusatory and condescending remarks about an entire gender, which is honestly disgusting, by the way!
For crying out loud. Yes, there’s an in-game reason for it. Just like there’s an in-comics reason for Starfire to run around in a bikini! Just like there’s an in-comics reason for Catwoman to be out of her shirt more often than she’s in it.
There’s always an in-game, in-continuity, in-canon reason for it. But those reasons always add up to the women being lower-status and more sexily. Noticing the broad trend – and don’t even pretend that stacked women revealingly clothed and posed and sexually insulted isn’t a broad trend – and then noticing that this is yet another example of that trend is not, by any stretch of the imagination, cherry-picking.
For one, I was arguing why they would have different dynamics when it comes to the criminals they face. They are two fundamentally different characters. You can argue the real world issues all you want, but that’s not what I was going for, and I certainly wasn’t ‘justifying it’ because I’m a smelly, evil man who just wants to flare his nostrils and stare at Catwoman’s pelvic region.
Pretty, stacked women are as broad a trend as rippling muscle guys and pretty boys. I’m not entirely sure where you want to go with this. If you’re making the argument that it sets some impossible standard for women’s bodies, doesn’t that argument cut both ways? You think men can’t have body image issues?
Did you really do the “men have big muscles in comics so that’s just as bad as the women having massive breasts and constantly falling out of their clothes and being sexual props for the men to get off to” argument?
Wow. Just… wow.
No actually it doesn’t cut both ways because males are the privileged class and women are not. Women cater to the desires and needs of men, traditionally, to the extent of starving themselves. Huge muscular men in spandex is a power fantasy, stacked women bending themselves in improbable angles so that the T&A are both simultaneously visible is not a power fantasy for women, it’s a “what I’d like to see” from the male artist.
If you’d think about this for more than three seconds you’d see that it does not even come close to cutting both ways jesus christ.
I also note that the crux of Batman as a character is Fear, while the crux of Catwoman’s is lust. Just pointing out some facts, carry on.
People are not as afraid of Catwoman as they are of Batman because she does not try as hard to be scary as he does. He strives to be a boogeyman to criminals; she doesn’t.
There are a few that want to screw Batman/Bruce Wayne, actually.
Nah, not hitting on Nightwing would be crazy, not hitting on Batman is sane.
Bingo.
Reminds me of figuring out that the third robin was (likely) gay. Tim Drake figured out the secret identity when he noticed Nightwing and Dick Grayson moved similarly. Why was he watching them so much? Well, look at them.
That’s right, straight men never closely observe the movement of their heroes and idols, especially ones hoping to one day do their job.
Well, it could be a gay thing. Except what he’s noticing is that Nightwing fights like a circus acrobat and Dick IS a circus acrobat. That’s not that hard to figure out…
Not to mention that it’s been implied that Tim had seen performances of the Flying Graysons before, either in-person (sometimes, he was even in attendance on The Night) or on old videos.
Ok, all of you guys, I love you, but:
1. It was a bit Tongue in cheek.
2. Context. Look at the post I was responding to.
3. It’s not like the character being into guys would be/is/could a bad thing. You guys need to keep that in mind.
4. It relates to alot of other incidents in other books that make “tim is gay” a potential argument.
In addition some responses: That’s right, straight men never closely observe the movement of their heroes and idols, especially ones hoping to one day do their job.
Tim didn’t want the job. He wanted dick to take the job back. ANd he only said THAT after figuring it out because he’d been watching them.
Comment two: Well, it could be a gay thing. Except what he’s noticing is that Nightwing fights like a circus acrobat and Dick IS a circus acrobat. That’s not that hard to figure out…
Yes, and WHY did he notice that? To say nothing of the fact that, both in the initial story and later, the amount of similarity he noticed was a bit more than that
Comment three: Not to mention that it’s been implied that Tim had seen performances of the Flying Graysons before, either in-person (sometimes, he was even in attendance on The Night) or on old videos.
… Yes. But once again, that goes back to the fact that he was obsessively watching the man. Makes an easy joke. HE was obsessively watching an acrobat and a vigilante without lusting after either job. Raises a few possibilities.
That isn’t why Tim is gay! Tim is gay because he is horrified by ladies who want to sex him!
Also he has a huge binder notebook full of doodles of Conner.
Willis. Why do you give the fans more bait?
He’s not the one who created the bait, he just mentioned it.
Exactly!
Personally, I just don’t get how watching the performance and paying attention to the performers = gay (or at least gay for Dick Grayson, which I submit to the court that EVERYONE IS GAY FOR DICK GRAYSON). That’s all.
Back before Scans_Daily died over on Livejournal we had a whole list of heroes either gender could be into without it affecting their sexuality at all. Nightwing placed number one on the list for men.
Also aliens don’t count, at all. Superman, Martian Manhunter, Starfire, Shatterstar, silver Surfer, none of them count as they are not human and do not fit into our definitions of sexuality. And everyone is everythign for Captain America and Wonder Woman.
Normally, you don’t get someone watching movements to a degree they can recognise the person based on them unless they have a particular…interest…in the subject matter. For example, wanting the job (which tim DIDN”T) or having a sexual interest in the figure in question.
Yeah, unless you’re like… some kind of detective or something. But none of the Batman characters are related to that, you’re right.
That might make sense, but again: AT THE TIME TIM DRAKE DID NOT WANT THE JOB
How many times do I have to say that?
Double standards much!
No one wants a piece of The Batman’s ass – no one!
If it makes him feel better I’d wanna molest and rape him…
Wait – I mean if I was an evil thug and a twisted villain not just in general! I mean I’d totally have sex with him if I could because he’s pretty hot – except he’s fictional…
I mean I’m not crazy or anything – uh well –
Can we go back to when I called out Double Standards – those where simpler times…
Hands off Batman’s ass. Everyone knows that it’s Joker property.
But, but….awww. Stupid Joker.
Stupid Sexy Joker!
Yeah, that is one person who wants Batman’s ass.
Seriously, Joker probably comes on to him more than most of the thugs coming on to Catwoman. I never ever ever want to hear Joker saying “cute little ass” EVER AGAIN
“only yooooooooouuuuuuuuu…”
There’s only one place this particular corner of the discussion can go:
http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=295
That was funny and somehow disturbing.
I did laugh at Penny Aracde’s take on it. But don’t fret Willis, yours is equally enjoyable too.
honestly i’d rather play as alfred, but idk what kinds of things they’d say that would be worse than being ordered around by a rich playboy/guy who plays around with bad people all night
i don’t care what the criminals say as long as the counter button now functions as a witty retort button.
I dunno, Willis, seems like there are plenty of good Arkham City comics still out there: http://threepanelsoul.com/2011/10/26/on-criminal-elements/
I love Three Panel Soul. I’ve been checking out Matt Boyd and Ian McConville’s work ever since they were doing MacHall.
I wouldn’t mind this so much if the sort of person who spoke like that to women would be able to empathize with the character they were playing, but who honestly sees that happening?
If you’re saying that people who talk like a hardened convict would identify more with a hardened convict… well, I suppose you’d be right, but why would they be playing as Catwoman in the first place?
Maybe because they want to hear her called ‘bitch.’ Maybe because she crawls with her ass in the air, shoved in the face of the player. (It turns out that there are multiple ways of being sexist displayed in the game. Who knew it wasn’t completely contained to one incident. It’s almost like female players are reacting to a bunch of sexist stuff getting shoved down their throats.)
Some people want to hear Justin Beiber be called a bitch.
I’ve only played bits of the Catwoman scenario, so I can’t comment on the ass part, but most of what I’ve seen of her in Batman’s scenario has her basically kicking a lot of ass. It’s almost as if some guys don’t care what gender the character they’re playing as is, as long as they get to beat the shit out of criminals.
Oh, well, if ‘some guys don’t care,’ then what the hell does it matter what the female players think? What matters is that the *guys* like the character.
Ah, so you’re one of the unappeasable.
Ironically, I think you’re the reason people have started not caring what these ‘female players’ think. Because you jump at everything, nobody even tries to appease you anymore. The more I try to say that this game isn’t worth getting angry over, the more you’ll call me a bigot. I’m wise to your game.
When did you say the game isn’t worth getting angry over? So far you’ve said that it’s realistic to have criminals sexually insult Catwoman, it’s perfectly right for them to fear Batman but not Catwoman, and you’re saying that no sexist guy would play as Catwoman in the first place.
It’s only when people argued you down that suddenly this trifling game isn’t worth getting angry over.
And I can see why you’re not angry. Your gender is widely and respectfully represented in games and in comics. Why would you be angry?
I never said it was right. I just said that’s how things are. At some point you need to pick your battles. The New 52? Hell yes. Arkham City? Not really.
Nobody argued me down yet. You have displayed rigorous amounts of sexism in your crusade against sexism. You are basically making my point for me.
And just because I’m a male doesn’t automatically mean I’m free from misrepresentation. That’s fucking absurd. It may shock you, but a person’s gender profile ISN’T THE ONLY THING THAT DEFINES THEM! I know, what a shocker, right? Maybe I just don’t go fucking batshit whenever an Asian is poorly portrayed in the media.
‘Rigorous’ isn’t an amount.
And I’m out.
Thanks for picking up the baton.
It’s funny how quickly you dismiss me when I voice my concerns but make fun of me for ‘dismissing’ someone else’s.
Sanctimonious AND hypocritical, I see.
Uh Ash, just gonna point out that as far as I can tell, she’s never once insulted you. If you, individually, are not sexist, then her criticisms of male sexism doesn’t actually apply to you.
I always love when “this angers me, please don’t do it” shorthands to “unappeasable.” Makes it so much easier to ignore the concerns of others.
Yes, much like people oft ignore my concerns when I bring up stuff that might not agree with your line of thought. Sure is a pleasant environment here.
You are free to leave.
Also: ‘This doesn’t make me angry, therefore it shouldn’t make you angry.’
It has been predetermined beforehand, by those who are not offended, what you are allowed to be offended by.
And remember: If you’re offended by something, it’s your own fault.
I generally only come here to read the comics (which I honestly find enjoyable sometimes).
That being said, honestly I have to comment on some of the stuff I see. It’s pretty sad when you find a place that’s so insular that if you state an opinion that’s different (not even incompatible) from everybody else you basically get swarmed with negativity. I’m just not a fan of how you attempt to paint anyone who has views you think are incompatible with yours as idiotic and moronic – issues are never black and white like that. Just saying.
Aaand there we have ‘You guys are all saying one thing, and I’m saying another. Doesn’t that mean the issue is more than black and white?’
I’m pretty sure that’s a bingo.
That being the case, why would you label my argument with absurdly simplistic (and incorrect) one liners? That’s absurd. I’ve insulted nobody (at least intentionally, I was trying to be careful) and yet a good deal of people are dismissive and peg me as some sort of bigot.
Mostly? It’s because the things you said have been said, studied, dissected, and ultimately rejected a thousand times before when this exact situation kept coming up. Pretty much everything you’ve said in this thread has entire essays written in response on various feminism FAQs. You’re arguments have already been argued against, so might as well use you to play some bingo.
Really? That’s your answer? It’s almost hilarious how hypocritical you’re being. You tell me not to be so dismissive (when I’m not) and yet you dismiss me without a second thought.
Dude, if you’d done five minutes of research into feminist theory, you could have avoided all the feminists making fun of you.
It’s not “dismissing you without a second thought.”
It’s “dismissing your arguments that have been talked about and disected over and over and over again for decades”.
Or, more simply, it’s “dismissing your argument after a billion thoughts.”
Dear god you make me ashamed to have a penis.
Yeah, pretty much.
“Ironically, I think you’re the reason people have started not caring what these ‘female players’ think.”
You mean there was a time when the video game industry cared what female player thought and I missed it?!
They used to make text adventure games aimed at woman, that were full of muscular men straight out of cheap romance novels. Or so I’ve heard.
I donno. Isn’t it equally likely that some people who play Catwoman just like beating the crap out sexist assholes who deserve it?
Sort of like how in so many game the bad guys are Nazis. Why? Because the game designers are anti-semetic? No, it’s because you can kill all the Nazis you want and not feel bad about it.
Just sayin’, but most those games don’t have the Nazi mooks actively spouting antisemitic insults in the middle of a fight, in all fights, throughout the game.
But if they did, would anyone declare the game as a whole anti-Semetic? I doubt it.
Ethan’s looking a little grey around the temples.
Just like his idol, Hal Jordan!
As many, many people have observed.
Hey, I just noticed that Ethan is going a little grey around the temples!
I felt the need to share.
There’s really nothing equitable with “bitch” to call Batman, though. Sure, you could argue “bastard”, but it doesn’t have the same punch as “bitch” for some reason.
Plus, if there were gay Arkham inmates, you just know that people’d be complaining about negative portrayals of gays. So they’re playing it safe.
Of course, you could just leave sexual politics out of it altogether and have the inmates screaming gender-neutral death threats…
But there are inmates who threaten to rape Bruce Wayne. Not necessarilly gay, but inmates. But then, one could argue that’s an unfair portrayal of criminals. One can argue all these points till the cows come home, but you know what that will cause? A text game, with one dimensional dialogue because everyone is scared to offend everyone else. I’m not saying it’s okay to call Catwoman a bitch (still angry about the new ‘I had sex with Catwoman!’ ‘So did I!’ -highfives- bull), but maybe somebody should call the bat a dickwad, or go berserk with fear instead of turn into a pansy. But hey, it’s DC. Everything they do fires off one stereotype or another…
Offhand, hmm..bear doesn’t really fit, or daddy, though I’ve seen both used on similar men in build. Nor does gym bunny, in situation. Stush is closer, so is troll. “nice basket” relates to the comments on appearance,
and, of course, there’s “f***y boy”
..hrm…
The real problem is, it’s harder to equate someone who seems so dominant physically with the mostly more submissive related derogatory language.
Mind you, this might have a bit to do with the nasty habit of depicting Cat Woman and other heroins with relatively weak builds by the standard of a female athletic form, in favor if anorexic supermodel with implants as a character base.
I’d really prefer the gender-neutral death threats, actually. Aside from a supposed detraction from ‘realism’ (and I mean, come on this is a game about a guy in a fucking bat suit fighting crime vigalante-style), what would be lost from Arkham City if the inmates just shouted, “Hey, Catwoman, I’m going to cut your face off!” without calling her a bitch, or making sexually aggressive comments? Who wants to hear that sort of thing in a video game? (Hint: don’t answer that.) Who would lose anything if the content in question was taken out?
Yeah, the game would be much improved if the guys were just violent and not rapey. But honestly the game would have been improved by either 1) more thought being put into Catwoman’s gameplay or 2) taking it out and having even more Batman stuff. As it stands currently, she’s like playing Batman… but worse in every single category and also everyone calls you bitch the whole time you’re doing it. Whoopee!
I have to disagree with you. Catwoman has a different fighting style and in my opinion, it’s actuallly kind of more fun than Batman’s. Obviously she’s not *as* powerful as Batman in terms of gadgets but I was surprised at how much they amped up her abilities for this game.
Downsides to Catwoman: the amount of sexism in the game, obviously… and how little thought was put into her riddles. The biggest, unarguable proof that the developers were sexist? The way her catsuit was unzipped to show off the goods for no reason. There’s no way to argue in favor of that.
This is a character who is based around the idea of being sexy. Just about every portrayal of her for the past twenty-years has been sex-positive. Heck, she even uses her sexuality in combat during the game, by kissing foes to distract them. I think it’s plausible she might keep the zip down specifically to distract the inmates. This also explains the use of makeup.
Actually, “bitch” could work just as well against Batman as against Catwoman. In fact, I might actually play the game if Batman got called a bitch.
And then make a YouTube video of it. ^_^
He is, during the intro. More accurately, Bruce is.
Better make sure not to turn off the game while playing Catwoman. That’s how I lost my saves (riddler trophies included)
Gay inmates! Clutch the pearls!
I think you put your finger on the double-standard. It is ‘realism’ for the inmates to objectify Catwoman, but there in a prison of all places when a good chunk of the population would very realistically spend a good bit of the day objectifying other guys that realism is left out. Not that more of it would be good. Quite the contrary, it is unnecessary to have it be part of the Catwoman setup but there it is anyway.
Reply to Wackd. I oopsed.
It’s not exactly left out.
Wasn’t there a thug that said he’d make Bruce Wayne his bitch at the beginning?
I’m sorry, but this reminds me of the whole hubbub about Deus Ex a few months back. Lots of sexism and racism in that game (not out of maliciousness, rather to create a realistic atmosphere of a world on the verge of war), and what people throw a giant hissy was a slightly negative portrayal of a black person.
I mean honestly, I can get behind rallies against prejudice, but at some point you’re basically becoming a zealot and contributing more to harm your cause than promote it. Expecting criminals to be gentlemenly and wordsmiths is idiotic.
Nobody is expecting criminals to be ‘gentlemenly and wordsmiths.’
Those people shouting ‘bitch bitch bitch’ at Catwoman in Arkham City aren’t criminals. They’re not people at all. They’re programmed characters in a video game. Characters that were deliberately programmed by game designers to shout ‘bitch bitch bitch’ at Catwoman, and only Catwoman. Someone designed that dialogue. Someone decided that the criminals in the video game were going to talk like that.
I’m not a zealot for getting upset that someone went out of their way to include offensive dialogue in a game that these designers expect consumers to buy and enjoy. They didn’t have to change the dialogue at all from what you’d encounter walking around as Batman, but they did. And for what? ‘Realism?’ In a video game about Batman?
You are apling old linguistics, It is clear that when the author of a message is not included in the elements of comunication then is anhilated from the message, that is an argument by never judging a person for what It says.
Next, every discourse is directed, however the direction here is based in a certain model
Well, hold on there. Having a wacky premise, like “dude dresses up as a bat and fights crime”, doesn’t mean verisimilitude gets chucked out the window automatically. Realism is about mimicking the real world, not mirroring it 1:1. Certain aspects are going to approach it closer to others, depending on the tone and mood. If the game wants me to pretend I’m in a grim and gritty city fighting psychopaths trying to kill me, having them insult and demean me can enhance the illusion.
Making NPCs react differently to Batman and Catwoman isn’t bad game design. I’d expect them to do it with the Penguin or whatever if they were a playable character too. It helps players imagine that they’re playing as Catwoman, rather than a reskinned Batman. The problem is HOW this is done, not that they do it. The double standard everyone else has pointed out.
“The problem is HOW this is done, not that they do it. The double standard everyone else has pointed out.”
If it were done right, more players who don’t have the Real Life experiences being used for “Realism”, would probably feel more uncomfortable about it all than they do. I mean comparing how Catwoman is realistically supposed to feel about what is said to her and how the player feels about it as they play her.
I figure Sucker Punch did something right in terms of character empathy because I’ve seen straight guys describing it as “rapey”, when it seems no more so than other films out there that don’t get that description.
And for those arguing so hard for the case of “realism” – some of us play games to escape real life once in a while.
Fortunately, the fact that you get to play as a version of Catwoman who keeps her top zipped way down to show off her cleavage, walks with a sexy saunter, sneaks by criminals by crawling on all fours with her ass stuck up in the air, slides under cross the ground on her back with her tits thrust upwards, and knocks out villains while straddling there faces totally makes up for the sexist comments the bad guys make.
As opposed to the versions of Catwoman that wear full suits of armor and only use standart krav maga moves.
*Standard, woops.
keeping the top zipped at least some of the time and NOT zooming in on the ass might be a start to fixing the problem.
Catwoman is COOL in TAS. She is not anything but quote unquote sexy for the entire playthrough of Arkham City.
Catwoman in the animated series had no problem being dressed head to toe. Same with the one from the Batman movie, the 60′s TV show, many incarnations of the character throughout the comic series the cartoon in the 70′s and so on. So if you’re going to try sarcasm, you might want to know what the hell you’re talking about.
Regardless, your comment ignores the knocking out thugs by sitting on their faces, crawling around on all fours with her ass in the air and everything else I mentioned.
If you’re going to fail that hard, why even bother?
You seem to forget the part where the Catwoman from the movie acted like she was turned on 24-7 and did nothing but flirt and murder. And how she was dressed in skin-tight leather. And was an incredibly weak female character since she only became Catwoman because of a man.
Umm, you’re not automatically a weak female character if a man affects your life. That’s stupid. That’s like saying Norman Bates is a weak male character because he had a weird thing about his mom.
In all fairness… Norman Bates isn’t exactly someone I think of when I think of the adjective “strong”. But yeah… agreed with your point regardless.
How about the fact that she became catwoman because she was nearly killed by a man, and then spent the rest of her existence getting revenge on that man. Her entire identity was wholly dependent on a man, and that does not make a strong female character.
Once again, this is just referring to the movie version of the character.
No… you seem to have assigned the argument to me that I have a problem with Catwoman being sexy. What I have a problem with is her sexuality being upscaled to a cartoonish level with no other trace of humanity in appearance.
My initial post listed a litany of things all at once. Any one of them on their own might be just fine, but that’s not what is happening with this game. So your attempt to counter each one individually while ignoring the whole of my argument achieves nothing, just as your earlier attempt at sarcasm utterly failed because a fully dressed Catwoman is actually fairly common.
Catwoman being in a state of near-undress is not exactly a new phenomenon. See http://dc.wikia.com/index.php?title=Selina_Kyle_(Earth-One)/Gallery&image=Catwoman_1960s3-jpg http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/3/3e/Catwoman_Thrillkiller_01.jpg http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111102202025/marvel_dc/images/4/42/Catwoman_0063.jpg or http://dc.wikia.com/index.php?title=Selina_Kyle_(Two_Faces)&image=Selina_Kyle_Two_Faces_001-png for previous examples. I could have come up with more, but I got bored with it rather quickly. As for her acting, apparently, too sexy when fighting the baddies… Catwoman is meant to look like a super-thief dominatrix, what else would you expect? She wears tons of skintight black leather and carries a whip. I don’t think she was ever envisioned as some sort of chaste paragon of virtue.
You got one example from the 60′s. The rest are one-off images outside of continuity or during workout time at the gym. Not exactly the same as the primary look for a character during the length of an entire “story”. Particularly one that takes place in freezing conditions.
And so what? Did THOSE instance of Catwoman include the character being called “bitch” every twelve seconds? You’re still trying to take my argument apart piece by piece. I already told you, I have no problem with sexual aspects to the character. What I do have a problem with is her being composed of primarily sexual aspects – particularly when they strain credulity and the suspension of disbelief or when they seem to serve no purpose except to titillate the viewer.
As for movement – You cannot choose to move in a non-sexy way with Catwoman. It’s not an option, even when she’s alone in a sewer.
It’s okay though. She’s just a “bitch” in a catsuit. Right? Because as far as I can tell, there’s nothing more to her in this game. That’s the point that I was making with my initial post – The criminals are meant to be “realistic” so they speak as they do? Okay. But Catwoman is far from realistic. There’s no mitigating information to give the character depth. And guess what? That’s important.
A woman in skimpy clothing in cold conditions stretches suspension of disbelief, but a man in a robot suit that fires ice beams or a woman who can telepathically control plants doesn’t? I think the problem here is not the character, but you. You will find anything you possibly can to make it sound like you’re the only sane person in a universe full of misogynists.
Criminals are BAD PEOPLE. A bunch of criminals IN JAIL acting polite and gentlemanly towards a woman that they almost certainly wish ill upon would stretch the suspension of disbelief for me. If you don’t like them calling her bad words, beat the shit out of them. You can beat the shit out of them as much as you like, and the game may even reward you for it in the form of experience or challenge medals or what have you. Hell, the way I see it, her sexy fighting style is just a way of taunting the poor saps she’s wiping the floor with. In a straight fight, I usually find her to be a more dangerous character than Batman.
You continue to miss the point. I agree that the criminals calling Catwoman names makes a certain amount of sense. Although after the third or fourth guy has had his teeth kicked in, you’d think they’d shut up or run away. Same goes for when you’re playing Batman.
For the third time: The issue I specifically commented on is the absurd sexualized movement COMBINED with the absurd sexualized fighting COMBINED with the absurd overuse of ONE particular insult COMBINED with the absurd costume. You trying to take this part piece by piece will always fail, because I have no problem with any one aspect on an individual basis.
As for Poison Ivy, I have problems with her. Yes. Did I say otherwise? But my problem isn’t with her powers, it’s with her complete lack of depth. But since she’s in the game for all of 30 seconds, so what? I have no problem with Mr. Freeze because he DOES have depth. You see how this works? The suspension of disbelief issue here isn’t the “real world versus superpowers” thing. If it was, I would be taking issue with how Catwoman can survive a fifty foot+ fall without breaking a sweat – not with her lack of proper attire.
Catwoman has zero mitigating character attributes that are not based in her sexuality. She has no humanity. This isn’t even debatable. There’s just nothing to her and, as she is the lone female playable character, this should not be the case.
I’ve never been able to wrap my head around the idea of being offended by things fictional characters say to other fictional character about a fictional character, but to each their own I suppose.
I am however offended by the implication I am seeing here that I, as a male gamer, am somehow responsible for the depiction of female characters in games, and would somehow have a problem with a positive depiction of a woman. I’m not clear why anyone is attacking anyone else over this.
I am so sorry that you are offended by the fact that men are being sexist towards women. I am so, so sorry.
/Ten voice
That’s sure totally what I said. Yep.
Allow me to elaborate/clarify.
People like that Ash guy up there are sexist morons. He’s a fuckwit. He deserves what he’s getting.
However, I then see the women responding to him with sweeping, equally sexist generalizations about men. That’s what I’m objecting to.
I get what you’re saying – it is offensive to assume all men are fine with the depiction of Catwomen.
I am offended by it to say the least. I can understand if some of the Criminals where saying stuff like that, but they should be well aware that Catwomen is a force to be feared. Also how come no one says this kind of stuff to Batman? Nice how hetero all the criminals conveniently all – all the more guys to lust after Catwomen!
However I am not offended by their comments because it as a grain of truth – they make situations like this because they assume that is what all heterosexual (I’d mention bisexuals, but I doubt people who make these situations acknowledge bisexuals exist) men want. I am offended by the assumption that exists that all men who can be attracted to women either want to be dominated by them (which is of course unnatural) or have them be submissive to them (which is if course natural).
The idea that men can be attracted to women for more than sexual reasons flies way over the heads of these kinds of people – that I find offensive. And well generalization of men is no better than generalization of women I won’t get mad at the ladies for voicing their frustration anymore than I’d expected them to get angry if the situation where reversed and I said all women just assume men are in it for sex and nothing else. They’re are blowing off steam – sometimes people generalize when they are frustrated at something – and in this case I‘d call it a fairly big something since it’s part of a larger problem facing the place of women in comics.
I’d expect no less respect and understanding if I was complaining about double standards that hurt men…
By the way I met I wasn’t offended by the comments here and I am offended by the treatment of Catwomen in the game…
I re-read my post and wasn’t sure if that was clear… -_-’
“Nice how hetero all the criminals conveniently all – all the more guys to lust after Catwomen!”
Except the guy that tells Bruce he’s going to make him his bitch…
You are playing Catwoman. The enemies are calling YOU a bitch. Constantly. For the entire length of the playthrough. Just from a variety standpoint, it’s annoying. From a gender perspective, it’s troubling. From a “this is a great game, why would you do this” standpoint, it is a disaster.
That’s probably the best summary of the issue I’ve seen in this thread.
Don’t you think maybe Snkrs would be doing a little better if you didn’t schlep him all around town every day?
Or is he a social creature who craves interaction/passive observation and would be doing far worse in a lonely cage in an empty house?
In my limited history of dealing with dying animals, I find that most of them die alone. When they expect to die soon, they attempt to be alone. And when they are being watched, petted, fed, and otherwise cared for, they keep on truckin’ even if it hurts, and wait to die until nobody’s watching. That’s my experience with multiple cats and dogs dying of old age. I don’t claim any expertise on snkrs.
That has rather disturbing implications about what Snkrs is going through, if you think about it too much.
Science Fact: Cuddling adorable animals helps them live longer.
That would be the best job ever.
But, you could never hug every one. And, that would be sad.
But I wanna put ‘em in a basket on a rainbow with little bow ties… ;^;
Wow! Lots of apologism in the comments tonight.
For what it’s worth, when it comes to examining sexism as presented in a fictional piece of work, one of the major criteria to look at is: how does the world react to the presentation of sexism? Of course nobody expects all offensive, racist, bigoted behavior to suddenly vanish from the world in a work of fiction, but the author’s hand will show in how the universe and narrative reacts to the behavior. Do the offending parties, at any point get called out on their offensive behavior? Is there any indication from anyone else within the universe that this is wrong and not okay? Or is it just accepted as an immutable piece of the background?
I haven’t played the game, so I couldn’t tell you!
Well, after they call her a bitch, she does get to beat the wicked shit out of them, soooo…maybe? IDK, it seems like the whole point of them calling her a bitch so often is because 1. They’re kind of limited on female-specific insults that will work in a teen-rated game and 2. You’re SUPPOSED to dislike the criminals of Arkham City. They are small-minded sexists who work for murderous lunatics.
I mean, I could understand complaints about the provocative ways Catwoman dresses and moves (a cat burgler needs to wear heels and stick her ass that high in the air while sneaking around?), but people complaining that they make the scum of the underworld seem like THE SCUM OF THE UNDERWORLD comes across as just silly.
I’d say the fact that they’re all IN JAIL and frequently get the shit kicked out of them by Batman shows that their behaviour isn’t exactly considered okay.
The universe never once reacts to the sexism on display. Catwoman’s the target of most of it, and while she inevitably beats the crap out of anyone who’s talking to her, she panders to that sexism while she does so rather than rejecting it – cleavage, heels, kisses, face sitting, whip, constant flirting with anything with a pulse…
Not one of the conversations between thugs or supervillain backgrounds indicates anyone’s been put in jail for sexual assault either. It’s always something comically ghoulish, and the reason Batman needs to take them down is because they’re actively engaged in crime or obstructing crime-stopping.
I think the only direct negative reaction to a sexist comment is when one thug informs another that “riding the Harley” may be unwise as she is mad as a sack of tigers.
Oh, Harley’s an extremely weak character in this too. In the previous game you fight her at least once and she’s a genuine threat. In this you trivially karate her into a wall in a cutscene like a clown pratfall the moment she’s introduced, toss her out of the way in another cutscene, and then find her tied up and have an option to un-gag and re-gag her. Presumably you leave her there to be found by one of the roving bands of rapey thugs, I don’t know. I guess that’s not Batman’s problem.
In fact, what does it say about Batman that it’s considered okay for him to drop into a random street and crack some ribs for fun, provided the people he assaults have been designated criminals by a corrupt authority who even put Bruce Wayne in there? Self-defence sure doesn’t cut it when Batman can see criminals through walls and can just grapple out any time anyway. But I guess that’s another discussion.
I’ve always wondered WHY Harley’s tied up. I mean, suddenly, she just is. Was there an explanation I missed?
I’m assuming Talia did it, considering she took the cure from Harley.
Of course, that begs the question why Talia didn’t just kill her, cause, you know, assassin. But I guess she would have felt bad over killing a pregnant woman.
Aha, Talia makes sense. Much better than, uh, the thugs.
No, it doesn’t “beg the question“.
You’re really earning that username, huh?
Do you provide links when people call Frankenstein’s Monster just “Frankenstein” too?
Personally, I console myself with the possibility that they’re using the reasoning that the monster is effectively the doctor’s son and thus shares his last name.
You never fight Harley in Asylum… She sits in a booth and throws thugs at you and then Batman beats her in the same way he does in City. By throwing her into a wall. The animations were a 1:1 copy.
Now in all honestly, Harley’s comments made sense. Harley IS an idiot, she’s annoying, she’s a psychopath. It’s her whole deal. It’s what makes her lovable. The thugs whine because now Harley isn’t sitting behind Joker she’s taking charge and it’s implied she’s not doing that great of a job with it. It’s why everyone is so happy towards the end when Joker is back in action. Harley couldn’t keep control without Joker’s help. She’s always been shown as rather incompetent. Again its one of her lovable little character traits.
Catwoman is in the same boat. She’s always been kind of a bitch. She’s been doing those things you listed in the comics since her solo series. She has a reputation for it even. She’s a provacative bad girl. Now I agree there is a lot of usage of the word bitch in the game but can it really be viewed as sexist? Catwoman runs around kicking the shit out of men for most of her gameplay. Its not like she needs to be saved by Batman every ten minutes, she’s saved by him once and she saves him once. And she was preparing her escape for that first one right before he saves her.
I’d say its more sexist that there are no female thugs outside of Talia’s guard then Catwoman being called a bitch.
Actually, what exactly happened to the female prisoners aside from Harley/Catwoman/Poison Ivy? In the comic that was released with the game, it shows TYGER agents trying to bring Jenna Duffy into Arkham City. Is she the only other female criminal in all of Gotham?
That’s something I hadn’t thought of before. I guess, realistically, it was probably so they could keep mostly the same two voice actors for most of the thugs, but still.
If there were female thugs in the game, then we would have Batman beating up female thugs, and we certainly couldn’t have that because I’m 100% sure we would have had people whining about how sexist that is as well, just as we are now with this “Sexist thugs are acting like sexist thugs? How dare they?!” bullshit.
I totally agree with the whole thing about how Catwoman crawls around with her ass up in the air and slides around thrusting out her tits and has her top unzipped almost down to her navel and such, however. That’s pretty blatant. I mean, sure, it’s part of her character portrayal that she uses her sexuality as a weapon, but still. It was an active choice of the game designers to use that Catwoman model for the game, rather than the Animated Series or Long Halloween models which are also in the game as character trophies.
Then again, to be fair, it was also the game designers’ decision to have the thugs shout “Bitch!” every other breath when dealing with Catwoman. There were other ways they could have made the thugs be thug-like without resorting so much to the tired sexism. I don’t agree that the game is RUINED FOREVER because of it, and still think it’s kind of a bullshit overreaction to get all militantly up-in-arms about it, but I can see where people are coming from all the same. It wasn’t beyond the power of the devs to tone it down some.
Batman does fight girls in the game. All of Talia’s ninjas are girls, and he kicks their ass no different from anyone else. He also punches Harley Quinn.
Because he doesn’t know yet.
He didn’t punch her in the stomach, did he? I completely forget how that scene went.
I think it was a torso blow, but not specifically in the stomach. It’s hard to tell, exactly. He just swings his arm and she flies.
Harley IS an idiot, she’s annoying, she’s a psychopath. It’s her whole deal.
You’ve never actually watched BTAS, have you?
The reason Harley doesn’t put up much of a fight is because she is *SPOILERS*pregnant.*SPOILERS* It would make fighting her proper a lot more icky.
My favorite bit of thug dialogue in the game is right before one of the Invisible Predator segments in the Steel Mill (I believe). One of the guards goes on a tear about Harley and Joker, imitating both of their voices and mocking them both hilariously. And it’s great because he doesn’t just say she’s a crazy bitch, he instead accurately points out the ridiculousness of her Joker fetish and accurately predicts his likely response.
1. You just used “she’s asking for it!” A woman does not deserve to be treated in a sexist manner, and your accusation
2. Major spoiler. Hover to see.
3. A good deal of the criminals are originally from Blackgate and Arkham. Since no one seems to be forced to join gangs, they’re fair game.
4. You don’t have to commit and be convicted for sexual assault to be a misogynist, or express misogynist views. In fact, I’m pretty sure a lot of people here will cheerfully tell you that many, many sexual assault cases are not reported, much less taken to court, much less convicted.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I read David Willis comics. Made me smile.
I have to say, Ethan’s greying hair makes him look more… distinguished, somehow. I like it.
I said that earlier-
Ethan + Greying Hair = Distinguished = Hotter and Sexier Ethan!
Well known fact!
Of course there is a question of if I’m a hypocrite for being against the objectification of Catwomen (which I find offensive – and come one – no one wants to tap Batman’s ass) well I objectify Ethan as an object of my sexual lust…
Hm, no one makes those comments about Batman, but people do loudly say about how they’re going to “make Bruce Wayne their bitch” at the beginning of the game, as well as the stuff that’s implied to be going on with the political prisoners too, whose tormentors do seem to be kinda rapey on occasion.
I totally forgot about that part at the beginning. Good memory, there. Maybe the reason no one’s threatening Batman that way is because he just scares the living shit out of them, while Catwoman has to run around smashing into walls because she doesn’t have the awesome glide.
Seriously, I’ve been thinking about this, and I kinda wonder if the change in how the characters talk is just a general attempt to make this game “darker and edgier” than the last one. I mean, yes, there was occasional swearing and some dark language in the first game. But in this one, every criminal is a murderer, swears get dropped every few seconds, and yes, there is extreme sexism.
It was definitely wrong, I’m not arguing against that. I’m just trying to figure out what changed from the first game, where no one commented on Harley in her nurse outfit, to Arkham City, where people are talking about raping a FROZEN WOMAN.
That being said, I love Arkham City. I love it so much despite its flaws.
Part of the reason I think no one commented on Harley in the first game, is that they kind of all had a unified goal under The Joker’s command. In Arkham City, well… it’s anarchy, pure and simple. A city without any laws in effect, beyond the ‘don’t try to escape, and we won’t shoot you’ aspect. They inmates don’t have a goal to put their minds to; they’re living the way they want to, without interference from the law or morals or anything like that. The main thing they have to worry about is crossing one of the big bads, and it’s pretty easy to avoid doing that. They’re gonna be a little freer with their comments.
Also, odds are that the only reason that the inmates are all murderers is that they’ve already killed everyone who wasn’t. Food for thought.
Snkrs is pretty close to that outlet, hope this ends well …
I’ll just sum it up this way:
Batman: TAS and the vast, vast majority of Batman comics managed to do just fine without this level of “realism” for decades. I think you nailed it right on the head Joraiem: This was purely about making this particular game “darker and edgier.”
I’m not ashamed to admit that I loved the gameplay and for the most part the story is top-notch, but I did get a certain sense of dissonance hearing Conroy and Hamill in their classic roles thrust into a Bat-Universe that seems far more Frank Miller than Denny O’Neill.
There is some suggestive chatter when you overhear the inmates threatening the political prisoners. Every time I hear the line, ‘no one’s gonna hear you, Little Girl,’ I get profoundly disturbed. And then drop in there and kick some ass.
I like to look at it all as motivation to be a better ass-kicker. Nothing beats cutting thugs off mid-lascivious comment with a boot to the head. Making a full freeflow combat string after one calls Catwoman a bitch kind of drives the point home. I don’t agree with it, and I certainly don’t endorse it, but I’m going to enjoy the game the best I can.
The entire portrayal of Catwoman makes me glad that I got all her Riddler trophies done. I care about her story, but I don’t care about her, and her objectification doesn’t help matters. There’s a reason I exclusively use the BTAS skin when playing the challenge mode; it’s the only iteration of her that was more than just eye-candy.
I would imagine the designers’ heads were probably more in the space of “give you more incentive to kick their ass” then “Female gamers? Heh, screw them.”
It’s also worth noting that on some levels I at least personally feel they had to make the Arkham City inmates as despicable as possible…because otherwise Batman is effectively just roaming around beating up a bunch of guys that are already in prison.
That’s the one aspect of the game that I think they really failed at. You want your bad guy convicts to be despicable on every level? That’s fine, but I think they should have included another faction besides the “political prisoners” that was non-hostile towards Batman and just trying to survive. Heck, I can even give them an easy story hook: Call them “the Repentants” and have them under Azrael’s protection at the Church or something. Not every criminal is a rapist/murderer…even in Gotham.
True. I certainly don’t feel sorry for them. Besides, the smart ones do run away, and even if you chase them, once they ball up in fear, Batman can’t attack them.
Also, I mentioned in an earlier comment, but it’s entirely likely that all the lesser criminals that aren’t murderers/rapists/psychos have probably already been killed by the ones who are. The political prisoners are more recent additions to Arkham’s population, which is why you actually see them. Also, I imagine they immediately went to find hiding places, whereas most criminals that aren’t necessarily repentant of being imprisoned would’ve tried to hold their own or even gain some cred, and got cut down violently.
I think your post encompasses the entire issue. I might be able to take the taunts as an excuse to make the player want to clobber the thugs… but Selina’s costume shows where the designers really stand. Catwoman has been confident and sexy (so has Harley, if you’re willing to loosen the reigns on “confident” given her relationship with the Joker) in all sorts of costumes, but someone at Rocksteady just didn’t understand that. “No, this is not possibly sexy unless she is actively in the middle of taking it off.” Yeah, it would have been fine, thanks. No, really. And it’s not just the clothes. It’s all over. In isolation, there might be something to be said, but taken together, it paints an ugly picture.
The other problem is that the costume isn’t even Rocksteady’s fault. Sure, they chose to go with that one, but given the options, Catwoman’s outfits have often been revealing or less-than-utilitarian in the comics. I mean, I dislike the outfit (unless Adam Hughes is drawing it, but I’m biased towards anything Adam Hughes draws), but it’s slightly less absurd than, say, the purple spandex from the Jim Balent days. I’m wondering if the use of that particular costume was a mandate from DC, since she’s a secondary protagonist and they desired for her to be in something more ‘current and recognizable.’ Piss-poor reasoning, but it could offer some explanation.
The costume itself is perfectly fine, but in the comics she usually keeps that particular version of her costume zipped up. When that happens, it’s actually the most practical outfit Selina’s ever had.
In Arkham City, she runs around with it half-unzipped and quite possibly not wearing any undergarments…in the middle of winter. Yes, Catwoman is and always has been a hyper-sexualized character, but it’s easy to see the point of those complaining about her portrayal. I won’t lie, as a male gamer I find it very nice to look at, but I would very easily rate her Arkham City portrayal as dead-even with her “New 52″ portrayal in terms of overexaggerating “teh sexy.” Even down to the fetishistic felinesque mannerisms she portrays if you let her stand still for a while.
I personally wasn’t offended by either the game or the “New 52″ portrayal of Catwoman (Starfire bugged me more), but I’m the target audience, and it’s easy for me to see how a good number of folks could be turned off by the usual subconscious misogyny of the typical superhero comic-book universes. There’s really no denying that these (up to and including this game) are empowerment fantasies for boys, and unfortunately with the exception of a few lone voices crying in the wilderness neither DC nor Marvel seem to have any serious interest in branching beyond that audience.
I’m curious: Has Rocksteady made any comment on the matter? Specifically I wonder if they leapt to the “But she’s a strong female character because she kicks all those guys asses!” defense or if they genuinely seemed blindsided by the criticism.
I don’t think Rocksteady has said anything on the matter, no, but then again, I don’t know that they’ve been approached in any public forum/interviews about it. I could be wrong, since I don’t really keep up on a lot of gaming magazines/blogs, so if I am, hopefully someone will correct me and provide a link.
Batman’s desirable tush!
I agree, shenanigans!!
I was just wondering, is it possible that the game’s writers did this deliberately in order to illustrate a point?
You mean like a meta-commentary on the general misogyny of most mainstream superhero comics? While very, VERY remotely possible…I highly doubt it.
Oooor they were just trying to portray a bunch of hardened sexist criminals as…hardened sexist criminals and everybody is reading too much into it.
This. /debate
Another point worth considering: Talia Al Ghul plays a fairly prominent role in the game as well, yet she gets to dress practically, and while she still has the “sexy saunter” she’s otherwise not remotely as hyper-sexualized as Catwoman despite having even MORE romantic overtones to her interactions with Batman than Catwoman does.
Of course, Talia isn’t a playable character, either…
Catwoman has always been a highly sexualized character though. That’s her thing, she uses those feminine wiles to get the better of men.
She usually keeps he outfit zipped up when she’s running around, tough. Even in the Balent days when she just struck pinup poses and had boobs the size of Volkswagons.
Wow. Even among Shortpacked’s fan base, you can’t get away from the apologists for sexism.
ffs, you justify it because it’s ‘realistic’?? If they actually did catch Catwoman and rape her, would you use the same excuse then?
Not to mention the disingenuous, cowardly whine of: “What, you think the thugs should be polite and well-mannered?” Is it really that hard for you to imagine a game where some villainous henchmen manage to trashtalk/rage at the female protagonist without constantly resorting to a highly politicised word and sexual intimations? Did you sit through all the Batman cartoons crying, “OMG, this is so unrealistic! No one is calling anyone a bitch! What’s with these guys?”
I was still on the fence about whether to buy this game and forgive the severe failure of taste and decency. Every time I see some male gamer try to excuse it as necessary in order to create atmosphere or maintain suspension of disbelief, my revulsion at the game increases – promoting this kind of nauseatingly flippant attitude towards gender issues is pretty much at the heart of the problem.
I really think the murdering, mutilation, and brutalization is rather more offensive than “saying rude words” and “this character exploits her sexuality”, especially since the protagonists engage in the physical violence as well, and…it’s kind of blinking obvious that the violence is not condemned, and the audience sees it as “badass”.
The sexism is wrong and shouldn’t be in the game, but it’s worrying that everyone is more focused on that then what appears to be a glorification of violence as a means to solve all problems.
And yes, I WOULD play a Batman Game where you have to convince the villains to give up their evil ways through Action Therapy.
Batman chooses violent solutions over peaceful ones. That’s a well known character trait. Criticizing the game for being accurate to the character is stupid.
The situational irony in your reply…it’s delicious.
Especially considering that this game series was conceived as a rhythm/dance game at one point.
Another problem I have with the apologist’s attitude. The constant refusal to try to understand that the problem doesn’t come down to costumes and references to sex. It’s a shadow of that preposterous line of anti-feminist thinking that pretends feminists want all female characters to dress in business suits, be flat-chested and talk constantly about ‘serious issues’.
Look, it’s not that hard. I’m male and I get it. Female characters can be sexy, can be naked, can talk about their books, can even – yes! – actually have sex in front of the camera. The key point is to avoid constantly defining them by their sexuality and making it the focus of their interacting with the player/other characters.
Poison Ivy: manipulates and mind-controls men to get what she wants.
Catwoman: uses her sexuality to get what she wants.
Harley Quinn: woman whose character is defined as “woman who fell in love with and is subservient to a complete psychopath who frequently ignores the sexual boundaries of others”.
Talia: Wears midriff- and cleavage-exposing clothing? She’s canonically obsessed with Batman, and is always seen indoors, so that’s reasonable.
Vicki Vale: Um…wears pantyhose in midwinter? I got nothing.
Oracle: Offscreen, and not sexualized in the least.
That should be ‘talk about their boobs’!
The joke is that instead of Catwoman, Ethan accidentally switched over to the Shortpacked comments thread for any comic featuring Malaya.
Here’s your internet.
Sure is starting to smell like dickwolves in the comments here.
sounds like they were trying to go for a generic “prisoner” dialogue for the thugs. Prison culture, at least what is depicted in movies, shows, and some games, is heavily masculine. Hence a bunch of prisoners in a game referring to Catwoman, who they don’t respect, and Bruce Wayne, who they don’t respect, as “bitches” that they’re going to have their way with. They also don’t have much respect for Harley Quinn unless she’s got the Joker backing her up, hence the similar dialogue choices. Seems to me that the writers weren’t necessarily sexist themselves, but were perhaps trying to represent a darker culture that is inherently sexist.
Now on to Catwoman herself. I’ve never followed Batman vehemently; I watched the TAS as a kid, and watched the new movies. My girlfriend, who IS a huge Batman fan, was mad at me when they announced Harvey Dent would be in the 2nd movie and I responded with, “Who’s that?” So my only exposure to Catwoman was the tamer cartoon version. To me, this game’s version of Catwoman seemed overly risque. If that’s how she was in the comics, then nevermind, the designers aren’t at fault. But if not, then that seems much more of an egregious offense then the “bitch bitch bitch” dialogue.
Regardless, it is an otherwise stellar game. It was my GOTY until Skyrim got its claws into me.
She’s more sexualized in the comics than in TAS (well, it kind of varies), but the game turns it up to 11.
Please, they’re obviously saying they’re going to GRAPE her in the mouth. What’s wrong with a villain called the Grapist anyways? ;P
Please put up a trigger warning when you include rape in your comic.
You want me to warn when I’m going to be mentioning rape IN a comic by mentioning rape BEFORE the comic.
And you don’t see the absurdity of this.
You want a warning that the word rape is in the comic? I mean, there is no rape scene, implied rape or even discussion of rape in the comic. It’s just the word rape.
I have serious trouble with the concept of “trigger warnings”. Never mind the obvious absurdity of saying something is in something so that you don’t look and discover said something, post traumatic stress can exist for a multitude of things. Should everything that anyone might have difficulty with receive a warning label?
I’m mostly against them existing for *stories*. I mean, the whole point of a sequential series of images that portrays a narrative is to squeeze out an emotion from somebody, whether that be laughter, horror, or whatever. Spelling out what emotional bits happen beforehand? Not gonna do it, not ever.
My job is to make people feel things. I’m not putting up little warning lights. That guts the whole craft of the thing.
(You may now laugh at me derisively for referring to making little half-assed Batman doodles as a “craft.”)
I don’t want to put words in Elena’s mouth, but someone already commented up the page under the impression that “rape rape rape” was a sound effect, not one of the thug’s brilliant taunts. I don’t really know how one would clarify that, though.
If it’s a sound effect, then you’re looking for an object that makes a sound that sounds like the word rape. I don’t think the sound of someone being raped off stage would sound like the word rape. I think the rape, rape, rape was more a “vocalization” of the vibe given by the game character’s words and actions.
Strictly speaking, by “sound effect” we mean an Unsound Effect, which Shortpacked! has made use of in the past (example).
No… I agree. That was pretty much exactly why I objected. Stories are emotionally provocative things… or at least they can be. Telling the story beforehand so you can tell the story only destroys the journey of the story.
But expanding on this… Now, I understand about triggers. But thing is, if you DO accept trigger warning for rape, what about trigger warnings for everything else that can be disturbing for people?
Oh sexism apologists. Nobody is going to take your game away from you. In fact, being that most of you are the target market for the video game industry, you will continue to be catered to, and you can pretend all you want that your games have nothing to do with the real world.
Actually, one inmate does threaten to make Bruce Wayne his prison bitch at the beginning of the story. They never knowingly tried it on Batman.
Jesus H. Lopez, did Alan Moore write that game’s script?
Alan Moore doesn’t have a reputation for this sort of thing. WTF.
He sort of does, if we’re talking about “includes rape often in his stories.” Just google “Alan Moore rape.”
I can see you’re a Laura Hudson fan.
Why can’t this be my own, separately-arrived-at thoughts on the matter?
I find it interesting that people are saying “Well one thug directed the same comments towards Bruce Wayne” as if that makes it on par with the amount of sexism directed towards Catwoman.
You know what though? The bitch bitch bitch part upset me far less than the overly sexualized costume and fighting moves. In no fighting style is it practical to leap onto someone’s shoulders and straddle their faces in order to take them down. Having her mimic cat motions really amps up the fetishism and makes it ridiculous. The female oriented words and threats of rape seem much more like a continuation of how shitty Gotham is to me and fits in more than the tits in the face constantly.
That’s pretty much how I feel. The way they portrayed Catwoman herself reflects more negatively on the developers than the enemy shouts.
If you want to mention a quantitative analysis of the slurs, Bruce was only exposed to said thugs for a few minutes, Catwoman significantly longer. Want to multiply the amount of time you’re playing as Bruce so it’s the same length as the average Catwoman runthrough? The fact that the thug promised to rape Wayne indicates misanthropy, not simply misogyny. He’s a horrible person all-round. You could argue that he’s not representative of the rest of the thugs, but Catwoman encounters only a small amount of the thugs in AC, and those are considered representative.
As for practicality, many of Batman’s moves aren’t practical either. They’re just designed to look practical. I find it amazing that he can toss around dozens of thugs, but not slice open an artery or two with those razor sharp gauntlets he wears, and that smacking thugs in the head with said gauntlets never causes brain damage or lethal injury, and that leaving lightly clothed people with broken limbs lying out in the open in the middle of winter in a “City” filled with sociopathic thugs doesn’t violate his no-kill code. In fact, why doesn’t anyone ever simply aim for his exposed chin?
Nightwing, in the DLC, can bounce his clubs off of several walls and have it come back to him like a Batarang, which actively defies the laws of physics. So any complaints about Catwoman’s combat being unrealistic have to encompass Batman as well.
The sexualized costume? No comment. I would’ve preferred it zipped up myself. A character who has long been sex-positive using her sexuality as a distraction would not be uncharacteristic, I admit, but I still don’t like it.
So, let me summarize these comments.
Man complains about a feminist addressing him in a manner he finds uncomfortable. He has no problem with the content, just the way it is presented.
He’s using the “Tone Argument”, and is trying to shut the woman down or divert the discussion, and is thus worthy of ridicule.
People find the manner in which the misogynist thugs in Arkham City address Catwoman to be uncomfortable. They have no problem with them being misogynist thugs, just the manner in which they express that misogyny.
Their views are entirely valid, and the game designers are clearly sexist.
Before you start in about the costume, people have been complaining about how the language alone indicates sexism on Rocksteady’s part. I think they were trying to convey sexism on the part of the characters, and executed it poorly, in a manner many members of the audience find distasteful.
I’m probably late to chime in, and I haven’t looked at the other comments, but to answer Willis’ original statement, some of the thugs probably are gay and want Bat’s ass, but they know that grade A ass steak has Joker’s name on it, and are scared to come out about wanting it, least they provoke the Joker’s anger for lusting at what is his. But Catwoman? Whose her ass ‘belong’ to? The Batman? Ah man, it’s not like he was going to punch them in the face anyway, making their options -openingly lust for kitty ass and get punched in the face, or -get punched in the face.
I have never even met gay hooligans, let alone thugs. And even if there were any, do you think they would openly say ‘gah, nothing fancy’ about Catwoman in front of all the other thugs?
I personally prefer Nightwing to Batman. Hell, I even think Catwoman is hotter than him. Batman just doesn’t have sex appeal for me.
http://www.thestrand.ca/editorial/hint-you-just-might-be-a-misogynist-1.2720949?pagereq=1#.TtroB4RqkmY