We love to keep our heroes’ hands clean via lucky circumstance.
Shortpacked! by David Willis
Toys are serious business.
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Phoenix Comicon Phoenix, AZ: May 23-26, 2013
BotCon San Diego, CA: June 28-30
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Phoenix Comicon Phoenix, AZ: May 23-26, 2013
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This would make for a very short series if he really did this.
Yeah but we would not have Galvatron giving Starscream a hint.
Maybe Willis has ideas on what could happen next.
Unless Starscream, being Starscream, brought the body with him to gloat over the headless corpse, only to jettison it…
It wouldn’t have been that short, using the first two seasons and the movie as an end-cap. Instead we got a confusing line about the end of the war from Roddimus Prime at the end of the movie followed byt a really, really badly written and animated (even by the standards of the time and especially compared to the movie) third season and an aborted fouth season (for American audiences) that make you want to forget that anything after the movie ever happened.
Is Megatron cracking like glass there?
[/Pat Lee]
Nah, that really happened in the film. It’s from all the wear and tear between Optimus and Megatron during their fight sequence.
…But you’re joking all the same, so who’m I to correct you? ^^; Carry on.
Yanno what, yeah, if Hot Rod hadn’t friggin’ got in the way, Prime wouldn’t have DIED.
…On the other hand, it would’ve taken a damn iconic death away from my childhood. >_> Seriously, I still to this day get goosebumps watching Prime on that table turning black.
People forget that G1 Optimus Prime and the crew of the Ark weren’t policemen. They were soldiers in a 9-million-year civil war. The Bayformers are in a similar situation: total war.
Earth’s politics don’t really parallel Bay’s Cybertronians, because EVERY Transformer we’ve ever seen on-screen was a soldier to some degree. There were no civilians, and the generals were also the heads of state. Essentially, Optimus and Megatron were kings in all but name.
We forget total war as a concept because we’re used to large civilian populations, supply chains, and POWs. Good guys don’t kill disarmed bad guys because the disarmed bad guys can’t grow a new weapon as soon as they get something to eat, break out of jail and restart the war.
Megatron was a rabid dog. You put down rabid dogs.
Essentially, Optimus and Megatron were kings in all but name.
“Prime.”
Prime just means “first”, not “king”. More accurately, though, they were both tyrants: rulers who achieved power by force. Granted, Optimus’ attainment of power was more “good”, but Megatron’s initial rise to power was based on overthrowing an oppressive caste system that Optimus supported, so….
Everyone seemed to forget that Megatron was reaching for a gun to blow Prime’s head off. If Hot Rod did not stop Megatron, Prime would’ve been dead without a head.
Go back and watch the scene, Optimus has the situation CLEARLY under control, yeah Megs grabbed a pistol, but if Hot Rod hadn’t blocked Prime’s line of fire he could have gotten off three shots before Megatron could have fired once.
Hot Rod fucked it up.
It was all Hot Rod’s fault.
Fucked up nothing. Hot rod deliberately got prime killed, and then interfered with the matrix transfer so that it would bond with him first.
He’s obviously engeering things so that the transformers pseudo-religious nature will force them to accept him as leader.
The matrix could have saved Optimus but didn’t because he was obviously just too stupid to live, then went with Hot Rod because it liked Hot Rod’s radical new “if your enemy is totally obviously picking up a gun right in front of you, maybe, you know, do something about it” ideas.
I need that on a tshirt. A shot of dead Optimus and the text “Hot Rod Fucked It Up”
And I’d get two of them. One for regular wearing and one for church…
Megatron had the gun drawn for all of two seconds before Hot Rod rushed him. In firearm terms, Prime had PLENTY of time to shoot Megatron before Hot Rod even reached him. He didn’t. Prime’s death is on his own incapable hands, not Hot Rod’s.
I’d had the same thought – I even imagined how this comic would look with panel 2 being the shot where the gun is visible – but Willis made the right choice. The point is that Prime didn’t know there was a gun, and he was still dismissive of Megatron’s request for “mercy.” Prime started the fight with a declaration that it would end in death, and when he had a chance to avoid that end by accepting Megatron’s surrender, Prime mocked him instead.
It’s possible to imagine other Hot-Rod-less outcomes, like Prime shooting to incapacitate. Or maybe Prime was genuinely trying to gauge Megatron’s sincerity by expressing skepticism, and if Megatron had continued supplicating, Prime would’ve eventually accepted. Or maybe Prime DID know there was a gun, and he was waiting for Megatron to go for it so he would feel more justified in killing him. But the most straightforward option based on the evidence is this strip.
Or he said, its been 9 million years, fuck this, I want to get a beer – boom, headshot, Miller Time!
Yanno what, yeah, if Hot Rod hadn’t friggin’ got in the way, Prime wouldn’t have DIED.
If Hot Rod hadn’t got in the way, Optimus would have kept talking until Megatron grabbed that gun and shot the fuck outta him, just like was about to happen before Hot Rod got in the way.
Megatron literally has the gun in his hands before Hot Rod does or says anything, the only thing Hots is guilty of is being unsuccessful at saving Optimus from his own stupidity.
I mean I know we all hate Hot Rod and must never, ever forgive him for temporarily replacing Optimus, and also for turning into an RV camper with flames painted on the side, because seriously, what was that about, but this is fucking stupid.
The only thing stopping Prime from doing *this* in the movie is that Hot-Rod is in the way.
Seriously, Prime has his ion cannon. Megatron has a crappy pistol. The only reason it’s dangeous to him at all is because Megs is inflicting futher damage on a fusion cannon wound. And that’s assuming that Prime couldn’t have just blown Megatron’s hand clean off.
Of course, when he fires said crappy pistol, it makes the FUSION CANNON sound effect because, hey, why not?
None of that is any more or less true with Hot Rod there trying to save Optimus’s stupid, stupid life than it is if Hot Rod isn’t there so that Optimus is free to get killed by his own breathtaking stupidity
I just gotta say: regardless of the whole Hotrod’s fault/Optimus’ fault debate. size is irrelevant to power on a transformer. Megatron actually seems to gain power when he shrinks to gun form. Or at least he has to for that alt mode to make *any* sense, but he certainly does not lose it.
It’s canon that the reason Megatron’s gunmode is more powerful is due to his mass shifting. Basically its how when a wave hits you at the beach, you’re hit with more force that any single bullet, it’s just that the bullet is a more direct application of force. If I remember correctly, Megatron’s shifted mass itself is released as kinetic energy with his first blast in gunmode (which only raises the question of how does he replenish that mass? I’m thinking that might be the “black hole” connection that’s never been fully explored.) Any way you look at it, the gunmode is a FAR more devastating weapon then what’s attached to his arm.
Arguing that Hot Rod caused Optimus’s death is not the same thing as saying that we all hate Hot Rod and he was a stupid winnebago and how dare he replace lovely Optimus.
I’m not saying I hate Hot Rod. I’m just saying, if Hot Rod or, heck, any other robot hadn’t been in the way, he’d prolly still be there.
Actually he’s got flames because that much red wouldn’t film well.
Not unless it’s limited as much as possible, the flames helped do that.
But Hot Rod DIDN’T stop Megatron, he just imcompentantly bumbled into the scene and was used as a shield.
::golf clap gif::
You know what I love about this comic the most?
UNLIKE Dark of the Moon, we get a “That was for Ironhide” line from Prime when he offs the helpless, pleading foe who executed him.
So Jazz goes totally unavenged?
Well, in the G1 movie, Jazz is still on moon base where he is completely safe from Megatron (though not from a giant planet eating monster which should have been spotted on sensors days before it made it to Cybertron).
So this Prime has no reason to avenge Jazz.
In DOTM, Ironhide doesn’t even get a “alas, I knew him well” line. Bam, he’s dead, and 2 seconds after he is forgotten. Ehren Krueger, go back to drama school.
BOOM headshot!
(Someone had to do it and it might as well be me)
Eh, I’m sorry but Optimus wouldn’t in fact execute an opponent who was surrendering. That more than anything separates the movie universe from the other ones in my opinion. Shrugs, just going to have to agree to disagree with you here Dave.
From what I recall (admitedly it was a long time ago), Megatron had pulled that MERCY crap a fair bit and it has always ended up biting Prime’s tailpipe, so it’s not exactly unwarrented.
Hmm: http://itswalky.tumblr.com/post/7831933419
I…is Megatron on one of those little springy rides?
Love your dual “logic” Willis. How you leave out the next page, where Prime – after dealing with Tantrum who was killing humans left and right – offers an ALLIANCE to Megatron.
Killing Tantrum probably did not help in making his point, though, considering how Megatron replies with a cannon blast.
He offers an alliance because there’s a larger threat and he needs Megatron’s help, not because he’s there to fight Megatron and save Earth. I’m not sure what that has to do with Prime, before our eyes, cold killing a dude who pleads for mercy.
And yet Earth needed the saving! The Cons had been ransacking Earth for weeks just to get his attention and there’s little of it left. No, Prime only shows up because he wants Decepticon help on something bigger. And then Megatron laughs, tears out Prime’s heart, and sends Prime home on a cart. No wonder Prime just stabs the dude through the head these days. Dude’s got an intelligence rating of 10, and just now he’s started using it.
Ok, then another question. Would the Optimus in the above story allow the city of Chicago to be all but obliterated and a healthy fraction of it’s population to be slaughtered just to show them how evil the decepticons were? Because the movie one that you’re trying to justify here did exactly that.
Dunno how you got that? They “left” earth because humans wanted them to, not to prove a point. And even then they had an ace up their sleeve to fool the cons.
It took Sam and co 15 hours to get to Chicago – as none of the autobots except Optimus with his flight tech can fly it took them the same time + however long to get out of the water. As for Optimus using his flight to get there faster alone – I hate to say but he sucks at flying compared to the Cons.
So, it wasn’t to prove a point – but to make the Cons think they were killed. If you are going to blame prime blame him for letting his whole team be land vehicles an no flyers.
This is another reason I don’t like the movies.
(Or the Iron Age, in general.)
Actually, for me it’s the other way around. This is one of the things I really, really like about the Iron Age, and (elements of) the movies: less stereotypical “heroes”. Thare are almost no words for how much I dislike the goody-two-shoes “hero” ideal. Almost as much as I despise two-dimensional villains.
“Almost as much as I despise two-dimensional villains.”
That’s almost _all_ the villains in Transformers!
If you can see the shadow of a gun hidden behind the flag of truce, you are justified in opening fire.
Megatron IS a gun though.
So, by extrapolation, we can assume that opening fire on Megatron, even under a flag of truce, is always justified?
So, without essentially dismembering and neutering him, (which could be considered far worse, if you think about it), how could Prime actually accept his surrender?
And yeah, they’ve been at war for how many cen- millen… yeah, millions of years. Seriously, my only problem with this was there wasn’t a double tap, to make DAMN sure that spark was out.
You’re calling Prime a liar?
Hilarious that Meg’s eyebrows still kept together as one piece.
I noticed that too – I’m assuming that’s what happens when you blow Capt’n Crunch’s head off too.
Well played, sir!
Mercy is not dispensed here. Only death.
In other cartoons, a quick death is a mercy.
Straxus Prime. Hey, his name is already in (faux) latin. That’s one of the qualifications for being Prime!
Maybe the writers of Dark of the Moon saw this scene as inspiration, and decided not to put Hot Rod in the film. Makes perfect sense.
And that’s the biggest flaw of Transformers as presented in the movies– the only thing they ever paid attention to was the original movie, which means all of its weird peccadillos, like Optimus serving only to kick butt and make cool speeches, Starscream as cowardly bootlicker first and schemer second if not third, and Transformers themselves being ridiculously easy to kill– were built up into a whole new timeline; one based on the mistakes of the past rather than the successes.
Also, in the 86 movie, Optimus and Megatron aren’t just fighting, it’s a RITUAL DEATHMATCH. Optimus himself declares his intention to kill Megatron or die trying. I don’t remember him saying “One shall stand, one shall fall” to Scavenger before he shot off his head without bothering to interrogate him about the meaning of ‘the fallen’.
Ritual deathmatch? Dude, no.
“One shall stand, one shall fall.” You don’t talk that stiffly unless you’re invoking a ritualistic challenge. He was clearly telling Megatron that there would be no ‘Decepticons, retreat’ this time. Yes, this is a new aspect of Transformer culture that we’d never heard of before the movie, but we’d never heard of the Matrix of Leadership either.
You’ve described to me a lovely bit of personal canon, but the fact of the matter is that you’re reading a hell of a lot into someone’s word choice.
Ritual Deathmatch? I thought Optimus wanted to end his feud with Megatron once and for all.
I don’t know Screamer was scheming from the first scene that we see him in the ’86 movie after Megs insults him. He just bidding his time meaning that he had learned from that MMTE Part III, the Triple Changer Takeover Failure, the brief alliance with Red Alert, that alliance with Dr. Arkerville, and various other points that I can’t exactly recall. He took great pleasure in kicking Megatron after his defeat by Prime. And he did throw him out into space. Honestly Movieverse Starscream in the movie shows no sign of rebellion other faint rebellion every once and awhile. There isn’t even any sign of bidding.
Well that would’ve given Starscream more personality, we don’t have time for the robots to display character when there’s numerous slow motion helicopter shots, aircraft carriers and wing suits to pad out the film, priorities man, priorities!
Oh, I see. It’s all about Ironhide… no revenge for poor Jazz, the Blackbot who got RIPPED IN HALF two movies ago…. >.> Prime be racist, yo.
That’s what I was about to say.
Poor Jazz.
Wrong Prime and Megs. Jazz survived the old ’86 movie, yet faded into obscurity not long after for a very good reason: Scatman Crothers, his voice, died. Which was a shame, because he got a real kick out of doing the show.
Besides, had he meant this to be the Bay!formers, he would’ve had Prime say something like “Oops. My bad…” all sarcastically. …which would be a fun scene, now that I think of it.
If it were bayformers, he would have said “Give me your face!” and then he would have ripped off the incoherent jumble that qualifies as a face for bayformers off of megs and worn it around like Hanibal Lector. Because that’s how bay’s Optimus Prime rolls out. In nightmarish metal skin-suits torn from the corpses of other bots.
Would you interface with me, I’d interface with me. I’d interface with me hard.
Shouldn’t Jazz be alive though? He was only ripped in half. Megs got half his face chopped off and lived, Frenzy was beheaded and reformatted into a cellphone with no problem, and that green head thing gobbling up garbage in Africa with Megatron is a former Constructicon.
The notion that being cut in half wasn’t actually a killing blow, but that the autobots just didn’t care enough to put him back together is actually a little more disturbing if placed under a racial light.
And I really wish we wouldn’t. I’d prefer to pretend as if our racial stereotypes aren’t being projected onto an alien nonorganic (or techno-organic. Whichever they are) species, no matter how hard that gets to ignore. Robots can’t have a token black. They just can’t.
What I choose to believe is that Jazz just happens to have mannerisms that match those of an image associated with a particular racial group in north america, which didn’t mean anything until he stepped onto earth. By stepping onto earth he stepped into a different cosmic law. Home-rules. Thus it is that this warrior who somehow has survived the war so far and is treated with esteem came to die without fuss immediately upon stepping onto our planet. The cosmos enforcing the fate of the token black on an unfortunate traveler who just happened to enter a location hostile to his particular set of mannerisms.
You. Did. NOT. Just reference Beast Machines as if anything about it could POSSIBLY be canon.
Where did I mention Beast Machines? Thought I was talking about Bayformers.
“. . . being projected onto an alien nonorganic (or techno-organic. Whichever they are) species . . .”
Transformers, techno-organic? Only place I’ve seen that is in Beast Machines.
I genuinely just didn’t know which one of those two was accurate.
Oh, okay. Because that would’ve ben TOTALLY BABIES.
Misspelling intended.
^_^ Carry on.
Hey! Some of us LIKED and STILL LIKE Beast Machines! You don’t see anyone slamming people for liking Transformers: Armada aka “Robots Playing Pokemon”? To each their own.
Actually, I like Beast Machines when considered on only its own merits. It just doesn’t fit with the “original universe” canon. Cybertron, former organic planet? No. Just no.
I’m not even that big a Transformers fan; I’ve seen the G1 cartoon and its movie, plus Beast Wars and Beast Machines, and the first Bayformer movie. And read some of the wiki. But Beast Machines makes as little sense now, knowing most G1 universe canon, as it did when it was on television when I was nine and knew only what was in the Beast Wars series.
I prefer to think of BM as an alternate-timeline, so that I can still logically enjoy the series. But I cannot find a sequence of events that would explain the “organic-origin Cybertron”. It renders me the bitch of a raw, throbbing brain pan. (Points if you get the random reference.)
tl;dr It was a joke, you silly goose! ^_^
Oh if only the 86 movie had ended like this I woulda been a happy camper.
Over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion based on what I know of the G1 cartoon continunity which means nothing honestly that Optimus was pissed because Megatron had killed Elita at some point between the movie and her last appearance. Again, that has no bearing here nor is it fact. That just my reasoning for why Optimus is so pissed by that point. Still Movie Optimus still had justification for what he did to Megs.
Son of a Scraplet. :/
People, the Autobots and Decepticons are not playfighting and not fighting for the sake of the Metrons here – they are two adversaries in a WAR, and the Decepticon leader does exactly what his name implies – deceives, lies, and will pull every dirty trick to win and kill all other life forms. Hell, in this very scene he was going for a gun hidden under the rubble.
If Prime has anything to apologize for in this comic, it’s for waiting as long as he did before he blew Megatron’s head off. Kudos, Willis.
Agreed and when I look back there were a lot of flaws with my beloved old series. There were plenty of times the Autobots could’ve taken prisoners and deplete the Decepticons ranks or capture or kill Megatron on some opportunities, but for the sake of the plot this never happened. The old guard tends to dump on Transformers Animated, but I actually think it had a superior plot to the original.
Provided Prime didn’t shoot Astrotrain down as the Decepticons escaped I imagine Starscream’s reign would’ve lasted longer than it did.
Okay… I’ll be perfectly honest here and now… I don’t care if my heroes are ‘clean’ or not. As long as they’re real and not some ‘Oh look, random event makes us able to live with ____ as if nothing ever happened’ or extremely uncharacteristic shows of mercy/violence/whatever.
I honestly wish there were more -real- characters and -real- stories.
My absolute most hated action movie cliche is when the hero has just killed a million goons, but he gets to the villain and decides to let him live for no reason (because it means our hero isn’t a stone-cold killer!) then the villain pull a tiny knife or some other suicidally insane thing so the hero can kill him guilt free.
Second most hated cliche: the ending in any super hero movie that pre-dates X-Men. X-Men popularized the idea of keeping good villains alive for sequels. Prior to that you had the problem that super-heroes never kill, but Hollywood logic DEMANDS that the villain die at the end. So the hero spares the villain who then slips on a banana peel and falls off a building or some equally retarded thing. Even though they’re X-men’s contemporaries, all three Spider-man movies suffered from this.
Goku always did that right. The villain who’s threatening your life specifically gets to live. You’re noble that way. The destroyer on a path of conquest stepping over the lives of innocents gets killed. Letting that one live isn’t noble. Mercy is only admirable when you’re the only one who’s gonna suffer because of it.
Goku did help out Freeza. He gave him enough energy to survive the planet blowing up, after which his natural toughness lets him survive in space. Then Freeza used that energy to throw one last potshot at Goku.
He stopped making that mistake later.
Fair enough. Aprox 300 episodes and I was thirteen. Details can escape me at times.
He also let Vegeta live, who then went on to kill an awful lot of people, become a bit good, kill more people, become proper good, stop killing, and then go evil again so that he could resume killing without feeling guilty.
Good move!
Killing Vegeta would have meant making himself the last of his kind and removing all first-hand memory of Saiyan culture. Yeah, Goku got sentimental for a moment. So sue him.
At least with him it wasn’t this whole “I’m so much better than you I’m gonna consent to your further genocides so that everyone knows how awesome I am” bunk that paragon type heroes do. This wasn’t some generalized policy against killing he was following. It was a decision to let Vegeta specifically live because various factors were causing Goku to question whether or not he wanted to kill Vegeta specifically right now.
There was no “Oh isn’t Goku so cool and noble for not killing that one” *Swoon*. It was just “Welp, guess Goku didn’t want to kill that one. Best not get too confrontational with him about it. You know how that saiyan heritage angries up the blood. Here’s hoping he knows what he’s doing.”
Goku had already either killed or been directly involved in the killings of Nappa and that other one who took Gohan hostage at this point. I remember specifically that Goku physically held that second one still so that Piccolo could line up the kill shot. He specifically decided not to kill Vegeta for his own personal reasons, and iirc that was a decision that got questioned from time to time and that he had to reflect upon later when it wasn’t looking like Vegeta was necessarily gonna be aligned with the good. Which admittedly was most of the time.
The point isn’t that Goku killed every bad guy that needed to be killed. The point is that he didn’t have such a strict no killing policy that he always carried it to places where it wasn’t really applicable. Most of the time when he does let someone live it’s more a matter of the fact that his Saiyan blood constantly drives him towards combat and opponents that can satisfy him are few and far between. “Killing you today would leave me incapable of sating my bloodlust tomorrow” in essence. Doesn’t delude himself into thinking this is some manner of high road that marks him as a better person. He’s just acting upon his own motivations, whatever they happen to be today.
Oh how I wish these comments had a preview button so I could see my nerd rants laid out before me before I submitted.
Anyway tl;dr: Vegeta was a special case.
Kinda wrong about Goku, Goku lets everyone live. I think the only bad guy killed by Goku in Dragonball is the Original King Piccolo (not sure, haven’t seen those episodes). Everyone else joins his team. In Z, Raditz is killed by Piccolo (Goku still gives multiple chances), Nappa and Ginyu Force are mostly killed by Vegeta, Freeza kills himself, Droids are absorbed by Cell, I can’t remember Cell’s circumstances, Buu gets converted to Uub. In GT, I can’t remember how Rildo dies, Myuu is killed by Baby, and I can’t remember how Baby gets dealt with. Not exactly a whole lot of executions. Goku ALWAYS tries to convert the bad guy or let them run away (see Freeza saga for many examples).
Yeah, the more I thought about that stuff after I wrote it the more it occurred to me that it’s been far too long since I watched any of that to actually argue it effectively. Just kept thinking up more and more instances that contradicted the notion, but it had already been posted.
Though I am quite sure that he didn’t have a strict no killing code as such. I mean sure, almost all the Z fighters are villains he’s converted, and he always makes the effort, but I’m pretty sure there were occasions where he was at least directly and consciously involved in a villain’s death, if not the deliverer of the deathblow.
But it’s been a long time. I might be wrong on that too. Certainly now that you’re laying that stuff out and I’m remembering it I can see that he’s not really a proper case of a hero who wasn’t kept clean through lucky circumstances.
As a side note, I felt like adding that I was referring to stories where happy endings -shouldn’t- occur but often do anyway for reasons that are obscenely nonsense. The story for DBZ isn’t that bad at all in that way. There are many many others, however… Ones that I can’t even mention for the sake of self preservation as I know many people will tear me apart physically for it.
I will say here and now that it extends beyond just anime though. ‘Last minute saves’ from an outside source that are almost entirely without explanation until it happens (those hobbits should have burned), happening to find just what you need just when you need it (no example even needed), and the oh so common plot armor that makes a person immune to everything until their usefulness is worn entirely out (gaming and tv series/movies apply as well.)
I like things to be -real- with how they’re presented rather than plot devices that saves everybody and everything (sometimes without explanation.)
But Sentinel Prime killed Ironhide.
Megatron killed Jazz.
Not in the ’86 movie. What Megs did to him in that was cold…
“Such heroic nonsense!”
In the new movie that annoyed the crap out of me. I really wish they had stuck with the alternate ending. rather than:
Optimus: “I’m sick of this war and fighting, it needs to end.”
…
Megatron: “I just saved your life, helped defeat Sentinel, and now I want a truce to end this war.”
Optimus: “No. I kill you. The war continues.”
Megatron: “Blargh, I’m dead.”
Yeah. I wasn’t 100% tuned in when it happened, so I walked out of the cinema basically thinking, “WTF? Did I miss something really important?”.
I can respect killing off your enemies so that they don’t come back, but casually dismissing a chance to potentially end the war? That’s… I don’t think Megs was the only one to suffer head trauma damage.
My friends and I who saw that had tears of disappointment when that happened. I didn’t like the movies much (save the first when we cheered and cried upon hearing Peter Cullen’s voice again), but that’s my disconnect between what I remember in my childhood vs. the modern take on transformers.
So you prefer:
Optimus: “I’m sick of this war and fighting, it needs to end.”
…
Megatron: “I just killed Sentinel, incidentally saving your life in the process, and now I want a truce. If you accept, I’ll go back to Cybertron and rebuild it with a huge Decepticon army. Oh but I totally won’t restart the war as soon as I feel like I can.”
Optimus: “Okay! I totally believe you!”
How about, “Hmmm… alright, we’ll take you home as a guest while we negotiate term. We will, of course require you to be disarmed”. Then they work something out that minimises risk for the Autobots (preferably allowing them to return to Cybertron -temporarily, even- to ‘assist with the reconstruction’). And if it doesn’t work out, you can always execute Megatron later. Unless they’re scared of starting a war…
I just can’t get past the idea that the Autobots are supposed to be heroic, and heroes don’t execute prisoners- especially not in the casual manner that Movie Prime slaughters his way through his rogues gallery. In the G2 page Willis linked to above, Tantrum was in the process of levelling an Earth city- just like Bonecrusher in movie 1, any hesitation on Prime’s part would have cost innocent lives.
I always see the Autobot leaders as more like Captain America than the Punisher, with the exceptions of Marvel Rodimus Prime (“request denied!”) or… Dai Atlas I suppose. Autobots (outside of the Wreckers and sociopaths like Sideswipe and Blades) shooting to kill any time there isn’t an immediate threat from their opponent just doesn’t ring true to me, inasmuch as ‘true’ makes any sense when discussing fiction. You could say that’s why they’re usually losing the war (or at least on the back foot) when the stories begin, but, well, that’s who they are and they *usually* stay true to that.
TL/DR, I disagree, folks.
I keep thinking of the G1 episode “Masquerade,” where the Autobots actually DID take prisoners, and the end result was as laughable as one would expect. The Stunticons were just stashed in cages in Autobot HQ, fully conscious and able to converse with each other, and when nobody was looking, they were able to break free with ridiculous ease and go back to the status quo.
As a kid, I wondered why the heroes went so damnably easy on their enemies (I recall He-Man in particular going out of his way to save Skeletor’s life “because all life is worth saving,” but the fact that Skeletor openly declared he was too set in his ways to change sides – and followed through on that claim in every episode to come – sent exactly the wrong message to me). So my inner eight-year-old was actually happy to see movie-Megatron get an axe to the head because that had been the obvious right answer all along.
The reason that doesn’t work in the real world is that we have a whole justice system to rely upon, and because the black-and-white hero/villain divide is rarely so clear as on a screen. But in the cartoon – and especially in the movieverse – everyone’s a soldier, everywhere’s the front line, and there is no court to take things to. Moreover, in the movies, most of the bad guys barely even seem sentient. The “rabid dog” comparison is square on.
Where the movies really fail, I think, is not in the brutality itself, but in the fact that it’s never acknowledged in any significant way. Prime throwing his gun down is a nice touch, but it’s too subtle and vague a gesture without some words about why he was forced to be merciless – and, more importantly, why we humans have not just the option of taking justice off the battlefield, but also the duty to.
Skeletor too set in his ways to change sides? I suspose you never saw the Christmas episode where Skeletor saved a bunch of kids from She-ra’s arch nemesis.
Oh my god…tell me you’re kidding. This makes me happy I didn’t watch He-man much.
He’s not kidding. It happened. Read a great review of the special here:
http://www.x-entertainment.com/articles/0700/
And if you dare, actually watch it here:
http://video.tvguide.com/HeMan+and+SheRa+Christmas+Special/HeMan+and+SheRa+A+Christmas+Special/10370893?autoplay=true&partnerid=OVG
I dunno if that’s “Skeletor changing his ways”, so much as “Skeletor taking an opportunity to fuck with Hordak”. They’re supposed to be bitter rivals.
But which is worse;
Killing a proven mass murderer who’s never indicated any regret for their actions or any goal outside of “establish self as ultimate tyrant of everything”, with a history of offering false alliances (re: promising to leave Earth if they give up Sam/banish the Autobots), and that you don’t have the resources to safely imprison,
OR
Trusting said tyrant to negotiate a peaceable and mutually beneficial alliance without using the chance to stab them in the back and kill or enslave millions of lives.
I mean, there’s being honorable, moralistic, and heroic, and then there is blatantly ignoring the evidence directly in front of your face and putting millions of others lives at risk for the sake of holding the moral high ground.
This is why good guys are stoooooopid. But we loves em all the same.
I think the problem most people are having is seeing the Autobots as heroes. In the Bayverse the Autobots are outnumbered survivors of a genocidal war. The Decepticons see themselves as entitled to ruling Cybertron, earth, and anything else they can get their hands on and go to any length to do so, and have no qualms about killing anyone for any reason. Prime has a tenuous alliance with the government only if he can protect humanity from the Decepticons. He kills because he has to. Seeing what Megatron and Sentinel Prime did to Chicago, and simply hearing what Megatron said about getting back in charge, had Prime not killed them both when they were not expecting it he would have lost the trust of the government and humanity and deserved the inevitable backstab Megatron would have delivered. You can’t trust Megatron in any continuity. I think they said it best in Beast Wars– “When a Predacon asks for a truce, it means they need time to reload their weapons.” Granted, Primal gave peace a chance, but there wasn’t the opportunity there to cut the head off the beast and potentially end it then
I can’t believe I just caught up to the end of this comic thus far.
Evil will always win, because Good is DUMB.
Fortunately, I’m evil.
Y’know, people keep quoting that, and I always think: You know, the bad guys lost at the end of that movie.
Yeah… but in that movie, while Good may have been dumb, Evil wasn’t exactly a pack of geniuses either.
No kidding. I mean, your ridiculously-easy-to-find Self Destruct Button is supposed to be COIN OPERATED.
That was a comedy. I’m talking about real life, where the good guys often don’t win, especially when they’re trying to hold the mythical “Moral high ground.”
In the real world, you never counter Hitler with Gandhi, because Hitler would just shoot Gandhi out of hand and never blink twice. The guy who really countered Hitler was another monster, name of Joe Stalin, a guy about as far from the moral high ground as you can possibly get.
Nietzche was wrong. Sometimes, it takes a monster to fight a monster.
God I wish I could just sit here and +1 that all day.
“Nietzche was wrong. Sometimes, it takes a monster to fight a monster.”
And then you’ve still got a monster running around being a monster and is now going to be an even stronger monster because he’s got control of the dead mosnter’s stuff, so it’s a pretty shit way of getting rid of a monster.
Kind of missing the point. In the scenario where you disregard Nietzche’s quote about being wary when hunting monsters lest you become one yourself you’re actually the second monster running rampant. So it’s awesome for you.
You’re on top now. You can do whatever you want. Good or bad it’s up to you.
The original point, surely, was that sometimes a second monster is needed to stop the first one – which doesn’t work because you’ve still got a monster.
It also doesn’t work for WW2, because the Soviet Union was getting arms and aid from other Allied powers, the intervention of the US was swinging things away from the Axis, and the Germans had their intelligence networks & secret codes compromised by nerds from a democracy. Hitler didn’t lose solely because of Stalin being a monster (and the USSR almost buckled because of Stalin not getting his arse in gear), anymore than he lost solely because of any other major factor.
Also, the Nazis’ failure against the USSR has less to do with Stalin being ruthless, and more to do with Russia being really fucking cold in the winter.
The original point, I’m quite sure, was that if you want to kill a monster it’s best to become one. To bring this back to transformers, you don’t win against the decepticons with an unwillingness to kill.
I’m not a historian. Not gonna talk about who kicked who’s ass in world war 2. I think we can agree that both sides were less than friendly though. That war wasn’t won by pulling punches and that’s all I’m gonna say on the matter.
Yeah, that was a common complaint from people who saw the new movie (I still haven’t seen it myself). They keep saying “Optimus would never killed an unarmed enemy in the old series”. To which I’d point out how he almost killed an unarmed Megatron. The funny thing is, the people who make that complain don’t even know that there even WAS an animated Transformers Movie. To which I then respond, “How do you call yourself a true Transformer’s fan and NOT know there was an animated movie?”
I think it’s more just how the execution went down: unarmed, crawling, not even facing him…I don’t know, considering all the people I know who say their conscience has the voice of Optimus Prime, it did seem really… unnecessarily brutal.
It wasn’t just that he killed him.
It’s that he went all full Mortal Kombat on him, dragging his axe through his face and such.
Personally, I felt cheated. I had assumed the entire reason why Optimus was being f-ed up by Sentinal Prime was so that when he DID fight Megatron, he would be equally wounded that it would be an equal fight. I figured it was gonna be epic.
Would it have been so bad to have a brief, one or three hit fight before Optimus killed him?
Its the climax of Michael Bay film. Are you really that surprised that he jilted you a good end fight?
I was more disappointed that we didn’t have some sort’ve truck battle between Megs and Optimus, since Megatron adopted a semi as his new alt mode. Seemed a bit of a waste.
Again… it’s Michael Bay. I don’t think he’s ever given a good pay-off finale for any of these these films.
Optimus is a soldier and leader in a war. In the animated movie Megatron just murdered a majority of his people in the most horrific manners possible. While I’m not a big advocate of killing in general, and if he did it, it could be considered brutal, but I’d hardly call it unnecessary. Megatron just committed a mass murder moments prior.
Honestly, outside of the battle at Autobot City, Starscream’s coronation and the final Unicron fight, the animated movie isn’t reallly that memorable.
The matrix and why Unicron fears it are never explained, nor their origins. The Quintesson scene is kind’ve pointless, as they again fail to explain why they are executing “innocent” robots and the Junkion stuff just creates more confusion. If they can bring Ultra Magnus back from death with a new coat of wax, why not rush this stuff back to Autobot City and heal their fallen comrades?
It only works once?
What wasn’t memorable? I’ll give you that some sequences didn’t make sense, but what about it wasn’t memorable?
Instead of memorable, perhaps what I meant was “remarkable” in the story telling sense of things. The middle chapter is mostly just a series of strange events that have no real pay off until expanded on in the third season of cartoons. Kind’ve pointless for the movie viewer though. (Particularly the embarrassing Junkion dance…)
Yeah, I really gotta disagree with you. You’re pointing out plotholes and story issues. I’m sorry but while those things might bother an adult with refine tastes of storytelling, those things didn’t matter in the slightest to those of us who saw the movie in the 80′s in the movie theaters as children. We were too busy being traumatized by watching our favorite childhood characters being murdered horrifically in a 15 minute period. And childhood trauma like that is pretty memorable.
The people who usually don’t remember the movie are the ones who never saw the movie as a child or were too young to remember it but instead as an adult and thus are able to analyze the movie’s details, or who only have a small passing familirarity with G1 and are instead more familiar with the newer shows and movies.
And that’s not even entirely true. My big Transformer injunction was with Beast Wars and again with Armada. The movie is still an incredibly memorable thing for me, even if I only saw it a few years ago.
Dude, you just drew ME talking to Ethan in the last panel. I mean, obviously that probably wasn’t your intention, but it’s uncanny!
“That was for Ironhide, you piece of shit. And the next time you come back, that’s what we’ll call you: Shitpiece.”
hee hee hee hee
I catch the subtle scent of a speech in a Shakespeare play. ~Willis you’re a Genius!
I don’t see a problem keeping heroes hands clean through lucky circumstances. It ‘s all fiction, 99% of it is based on “lucky circumstances” of one sort or another. And Optimus works better “clean” IMO.
As for dealing with Megs. I like the situation in issue 22 of the Comic out today. The Autobots aren’t forgiving or forgetting anything but they’re taking him to trial before execution as beings who aspire to civilization and justice probably should.
There’s a reason you can be arrested for attempted murder, you know.
??? Don’t follow you?
B
What kind of person you are does not depend on whether circumstances conspire to prevent you from doing the sort of thing you set out to do.
My POV is slightly different. In the ’86 movie, it was at the end of an Honor Dual to the death. The whole one shall stand one shall fall thing. And of course to the death means to the death. It was part of the deal. Well bargained and done.
And even then, Megatron’s begging, although really only buying for time so he could grab a pistol, was enough to delay Prime’s actions because of his nature… and then Hot Rod happened.
However, in the Bay movies, it was a different situation when he executed Sentinel as he tried to explain himself. That was dishonorable. (Not to mention a waste of the supposed most brilliant mind on Cybertron who had no reason left to work against them, if honor is not a concern.)
You read an awful lot of fanfiction into that one line.
So what actually makes the decepticons evil anyway? Are they just an opposing faction in their war or did they like do something at some point? I was thinking through whether this is a situation where mercy would even be noble and it occurs to me that I have no idea what would be prevented or put into motion by Megatron’s death.
It’s mostly a foreign policy issue. Decepticons believe that, since they are bigger, stronger, and tougher than any other race in the universe, they should feel free to take whatever they want. Autobots think that they should help other species instead. And ever since their ships crashed here, humans have been the main target for this issue. Since a Decepticon victory would mean humans becoming slaves or target, we side with the Autobots.
A fair enough. That clears up a lot. I suppose that makes it a bit of a grey area from an autobot perspective since the lives primarily put at risk are just lower life forms they’re hoping to utilize.
In the old comics, the Decepticons wanted to transform Cybertron into a “cosmic dreadnaught” ie: basically the “Death Star” and use it to oppress the rest of the universe. So thats pretty darn evil there, and to do it, they have to kill all the Autobots on the planet, so you have the transformer equivalent of genocide. (Again, not very nice.)
Well that certainly is evil. I’d like to hope that Optimus wouldn’t be opposed to killing the man actively engaged in the continued mass murder of the people who call him their leader. I can’t really imagine any of his men endorsing that decision when he returns to base and tells everyone they can look forward to probably being the next ironhide.
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/5103/optimusisdumb.jpg
Why aren’t you firing right now, Optimus? Why aren’t you doing anything about this guy with a gun literally there in his hands, the way Hot Rod is sensibly attempting to do?
Oh wait, that’s right: Because you are the stupidest robot in the universe, Optimus. Because you are literally too stupid to live.
Have you watched the scene from the original movie?
You do realize that between the time that Megatron grabbed the gun and the time Hot Rod jumps on Megatron, less than one second passes. And even if Optimus was able to get in a shot in that split second before Hot Rod jumped Megatron, Hot Rod was in the line of fire and would have likely been hurt.
Yeah, it’s easy to look at a freeze frame/screen capture and say “I would have shot him now”, but watch it in real time and then see how short that split second is to react before Hot Rod gets in the way.
Also, in that split second, Optimus is distracted by Hot Rod running into the fight. Had Hot Rod listened to Kup and stayed the hell out of it, Prime would have shot Megatron dead before Megs could fully lift the gun up.
Dangermouse, I respect that you have a thing against Prime. But you aren’t gonna “convince” us about your views on him by just calling him “stupidest robot in the universe”. Insulting Prime only makes people less likely to listen to you, even if you are also arguing a valid point or stating a valid opinion. The insults only hurt your argument.
Wait a second. Is that the barrel of a giant gun coming out of Megatron’s back? Then what does he need that little peeshooter in his hand for?
Out of ammo?
Maybe he needs to be in his transformed state to be able to use it.
Mold objection: I always felt that they intentionally left it ambiguous whether Optimus would really have done it. But then again, that’s a cop-out.
I like to think the Autobots were always ruthless killing machines who were the lesser of two evils and that the cartoon versions of them were propaganda published years after the war to make the Decepticons out to be completely unforgivable and the Autobots out to be the merciful heroes. When you view G1/etc. as propaganda from the winners of a war, it makes a lot more sense. It’s also why Optimus sounds like John Wayne and Megatron/Starscream/etc. are remarkably whiny sounding.
Wait. That sounds VERY much like the episode where the Decepticons try to fool the humans into thinking that the Autobots are the bad guys, and are just using propaganda to fool everyone into turning to the Decepticon side.
Unless the Autobots DID win and produce the series, in which case they might have put that episode in just to make people discredit the possibility. . . .oh ouch. Mind Screw.
For once, Optimus shouldn’t have worried about getting Paragon Points and gone for the Renegade option instead. Some days you just have to not be Jean-Luc Picard and instead go a little Dirty Harry on your enemies.
You obviously don’t know Jean-Luc.
“Wait! One shot in here will ignite the atmosphere and kill us both! Are you really going to do that? . . . Then I will.”
*BOOM*
Alright, so I know that this has nothing to do with the strip, but:
Superman went to find Supergirl, told her to gather the members of the Justice League real quick (She’s all “But I’m not even in it” and he replies “I don’t care JUST GO GET THEM FAST, okay?”) and she gets them and they meet with him aboard a giant spaceship that looks like a base made in CGI that kinda clashes with the animation.
He then tells Wonder Woman to pilot the ship towards Mars (I guess a giant spaceship drives like an invisible jet?) because it turns out he’s from an alternate future where these alien pirates (that strangely look like humans (not like that ever happened before)) did the standard “We are aliens, therefore we will do nasty things to your planet and its population” schtick.
So after the Flash’s witty banter, they land on mars, where they meet the alien pirates’ space-chief-dude-who’s-actually-a-girl, and Superman’s all, “Alright, let me handle this” and Batman’s all, “Well, why the fuck did you bring us here in the first place?” and decides to go with him. Superman exits the ship, and introduces himself to the space pirates’ leader, followed by Batman, who says “…And I’m Batman, and I can breathe in space.”
Then it turns out the alien pirate’s leader has no intention of attacking Earth, she was only gonna resupply on Mars (because, you know, there are so many estabished spaceship gas-stations there), and her lieutenant is plotting against her in another place.
So, we go back to Supes and Bats, who are all, “Wait, what?” and then I woke up.
What does it mean? (Besides the usual “DAMN YOU, WILLIS!”)
Good comic!
Since I’m really tired of the “Optimus’ brutality” debate, the thing this one really made me think about was what the ’86 film would have been like if this scenario had happened.
I mean, if Optimus was alive or dead, Unicron would still be on his way and the Decepticons would still have retreated from Autobot City. They still would have dumped a bunch of them out of Astrotrain. So who would have been Galvatron? If anyone.
Then the rest of the movie would have happened. Maybe Optimus would have been devoured by Sharkticons and the Matrix lost forever on Quintessa.
OR: Optimus is killed by the squid on Quintessa and then KUP becomes Prime. KUPTIMUS PRIME
It is all really a question of whether Unicron knew about the Matrix being in Transformers custody or if he only knew because the Matrix got passed on.
We actually have no clue if Unicron was on his way to Cybertron when he saw the Matrix. Also, his reason for creating Galvatron and the others was to destroy the Matrix. So if the only reason he headed to Cybertron was because of seeing the Matrix passed on, then none of the rest of the movie would have happened.
But for the sake of your scenerio:
Optimus would have been on the shuttle with Magnus, Springer and Arcee. He would not have said “I can’t handle that right now” when Hot Rod’s shuttle is blown up. He would have fought Galvatron on Junkion and won. Then blew up Unicron.
The movie doesn’t bother me because, unlike Superman, Optimus isn’t a superhero. Therefor, I don’t apply superhero tropes to him like “don’t kill someone’s who’s surrendering.” I’m assuming there called Deceptacons for a reason, not just for shits and giggles.
It’s the same reason Captain America can use a gun, but other Superheroes can’t. Captain America started out as a solider, he doesn’t need a hang-up about guns.
Dude, you know he was totally gonna shoot him, he was just gonna let Megatron pick up the gun first.
Prime would never execute an unarmed opponent. But once he picked up that gun he was obviously going for, BAM. Ded.
Stupid Hot Rod.
I just have this to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I
But…water can ruin guns. Why would he be bathing with one?
Well, cops usually keep a gun trained on a suspect until after they handcuff them, so it’s completely possible that Prime COULD’VE taken a surrendering Megatron into custody. Plus in war, there’s a huge difference between shooting an armed combatant and outright mutilating someone.
G1 Prime is still a far cry from Michael Bay’s face collecting, spine ripping,
“Jetfire carcass wearing” murder machine who exclaims the battle cry “Kill them all!” at least twice in the new film.
Bayverse Prime is the “Leatherface” of giant transformable robots.
Isn’t the battlecry of G1 Prime “One shall stand, one shall fall”? And people always thought that was really awesome until he actually started acting on it. What did they expect?
I only remember him saying that once, in the the movie. Usually he said “Transform and roll out!” (His tech spec stated his motto as “Freedom being the right of all sentient beings” or something but I don’t think he ever really said that on the toon.)
Personally, I liked “Fat chance, fat head.” but that one never really caught on…
His battle cry is “Transform and roll out!”
If that’s his battlecry, then I guess he immediately slaughters his own Autobots, then? Because he utters it on his own front porch, where there’s no battle.
A battlecry is something basically said to rally your troops, when Captain America screams “Avengers Assemble!” He doesn’t do it with the intent to behead Iron Man and Thor.
Nope. He only beheads Baron Blood and amaybe a few Doombots..
Also, maybe I’m remembering it incorrectly, but wasn’t it Sentinel who asked Optimus for mercy in DOTM, not Megatron? Wouldn’t it make sense to put him on trial before his Autobot peers?
He doesn’t ask for mercy does he?
He just tried one last time to get Prime to acknowledge that all this bad stuff was to save Cybertron and that he doesn’t go around doing bad stuff for fun.
He wanted to be understood as doing the wrong thing for the right reasons but Prime told him that he’s betrayed himself and everything he ever stood for and then puts him down with the nearest space shotgun.
You can’t compare being a cop to being a solider in a bloody/oily and violent war. Those are two very different things. Taking Megatron into custody would either delay the inevitable (i.e. he’d be executed for war crimes by the United Nations) or he’d escape and go on another killing spree. Best to cut out the middle-man.
And as most Transformers fans known, every time Optimus kills someone its because he has to do it. And frankly, if your enemy has come back from the dead at least once already, you’re going to go the extra mile to make sure they don’t come back a second time, particularly after trying to destroy the world THREE times in a row…
Soldiers take unarmed combatants into custody just like police though. I never said G1 Optimus Prime wouldn’t kill, but he always seemed willing to accept an opponent’s surrender. The problem with movie Prime isn’t just that he has no convictions when it comes to destroying an opponent, but also his methods. Look at how the Geneva Conventions define war crimes.
Theres a reason certain actions and particularly inhumane forms of weaponry (flamethrowers, biological and certain chemical agents) etc. are not condoned. Sure, terrorists and ther bad guys don’t comply with these rules, but that’s part of the reason they’re bad guys. Optimus Prime should be better then that.
Whether or not we’re getting into the whole honor thing prisoners are just often a good idea. That’s nothing to do with deciding not to kill. It’s about being able to get more out of them alive (for the time being) than dead. Leader of the enemy forces held captive certainly sounds more useful to me than the leader of the enemy forces dead.
Yes. Soldiers have been known to take prisoners. That’s just sensible.
Exactly, with Megatron in custody, the Autobots could at least attempt to negotiate a treaty with the remaining Decepticons. Sure, guys like Starscream wouldn’t go for it, but there were also an equal amount of ‘Cons that WERE completely loyal to Megatron (Shockwave, Rumble, Skywarp, etc.) that might. Granted, negotiations don’t make exciting action movies, but that’s not really the point.
We didn’t continue to bomb Japan and Germany into oblivion AFTER WW2. They also could’ve tried to go back on their word, just like the argument everyone is making for why Prime HAD no choice but to kill Megatron.
Sure, and even outside of negotiations I assume Megatron could have provided information that would have aided massively in their attempt to stop the decepticons once and for all. Plus his continued survival would leave the decepticons divided, as opposed to his death which would presumably have left them united under the Starscream and more enraged than ever.
Killing the leader of the enemy forces once he’s unarmed and prone before you can often be counter to your goals.
Not like I see an ethical problem with killing him, but why do it when there are more productive courses of action. At that point you’re not fighting for a cause so much as just pursuing a personal grudge.
The thing with this is that it assumes Optimus Prime has the means by which to safely restrain/imprison Megatron until they’re able to put him on trial. Cartoon Optimus possibly could have pulled it off, since the Autobots had gained control of Cybertron at that point and had a big Earth base, but there’s no way Bay!Optimus could have pulled it off.
They had what, a handful of surviving Autobots and a gaggle of humans? And Prime is the only one with the power to go toe-to-toe with Megatron? The best they could have done was frozen him again.
Either way it’s certainly an option that was present, and which could be chosen or disregarded on merits alone without even bringing morals or honor into the equation.
I mean sure, kill him if that’s the best option. Imprison him if that’s gonna work. Not like imprisoning him would mean Optimus is too noble to kill the guy and it’s not like killing him would mean the notion of prisoners of war isn’t relevant in this war.
Which is really what I was disagreeing with. The notion that imprisoning Megatron would be dismissed by default simply because this is war not law enforcement. There’d be a whole lot more to it than simply “Delaying the inevitable” if they were to imprison him.
“Cartoon Optimus possibly could have pulled it off, since the Autobots had gained control of Cybertron at that point and had a big Earth base”
At the time of the cartoon movie, the Decepticons were in complete control of Cybertron, with the Autobots in “secret” bases on the moons. And the Earth base was severely compromised due to the Decepticon attack.
Some things to consider when talking about imprisoning Megatron:
A prisoner Megatron is dangerous. Between his attempts at escape and the remaining Decepticons trying to break him out, there will be plenty of damage and wounded.
A prisoner Megatron will never give information about other Decepticons and will never negotiate.
And most definitely in the case of the Bayverse Megatron, the Autobots would have nothing to do with Megatron after his capture. The human governments would demand that they get control over prisoners. And since Transformers aren’t human, they would not be subject to human rights.
@Rick Sivart- Meagtron in the cartoons was shown to negotiate with the Autobots on several occassions, usually it involved teaming up to stop Starscream or the Insecticons from dooming the planet, so it’s not as “off the table” as you seem to think it is. Would the Decepticons mount a rescue? Possibly, but they also seemed pretty content to leave his ass there, only Soundwave bothered to pick him up. Not to mention no one tried to stop Starscream from tossing him into deep space. Megatron was pretty busted up, enough that one haymaker from Optimus left him crippled. I don’t think he’d be in any condition to escape on his own.
As for movie Megatron, he DID propose a truce, considering that there were just a handful of Autobots on earth versus the hundreds of ‘Cons that came through the space bridge, not to mention the groups scattered throughout the world that activated Sentinel’s pillars, a truce kinda makes sense: as the Autobots really don’t have the forces to fight them off. The Decepticons will continue with their plan of mayhem and slaughter, destroying cities and finally enslaving the remaining humans. Sam and Carly will probably be split up into seperate labor camps, etc. Wow, what a sad ending for this series!
Impossible to restrain him? Just pull his arms and legs off, coat him in concrete, throw him in a bomb shelter, and set up some guards. Prime is allied with the United States Army and has blades coming out of his arms; he can do all that.
Actually, the fact Prime WOULD execute a surrendering opponent IS what I like about him. He’s in a desperate war, no time for pleansantries.
In a non-major war time, I’d like to think otherwise. It’s kinda how Captain America shot Nazis during WWII, but when the war was over, he simply punched bad guys, because now, he could.
Anyone else notice Megatron didn’t have a Decepticon symbol on his chest throughout the whole comic?
Also, just agree on the fact that Hot Rod fucked it up! If Hot Rod hadn’t shown up, Megatron’s head would be nothing but smoldering eyebrows!
Optimus is a soldier, in my opinion. He has no problem with guns, or killing for that matter.
I think sometimes people forget that in the 80s a “hero” was someone who fought for good and let the bad guy go no matter what they did. A show made for kids to show good and bad.
Its a false way of things.
Even Primal in Beast Wars was all “aww we don’t have to fight” in the beginning. In the end I really thought he would KILL Megatron. I really WANTED him to kill Megatron.
But no he was stupid and Beast Machines happened. And there are still points of BM that Though pretty etc I cannot wrap my head around.
The fact Prime ended Megatron in the film (but not the book) was better in my opinion. Had Megatron been dead before Dark of the Moon NONE of it would have happened.
Sentinel had a truce with Megatron – Megatron dead no truce – no dead Ironhide (BAWWWW ;_;) – no destroyed Chicago – no bloody mass of bones and muscle tissues splatted against the roads and buildings.
I hate to say but Megatron deserved what he got. As did Sentinel for going against his OWN moral code just to be a “god”.
The laser gun does make it easier to take, rather than seeing Optimus Prime get all Conan the Barbarian on the Decepticons.
@MikeK
But Optimus does have an axe, however. He did go all Conan on Sentinel and Megatron in DOTM. Which, for some sick reason, I thought was awesome.
I agree with Stormrunner, Megs and Sentinel did deserve what they got.
Thats pointless anyway because Megatron will have downloaded his memories, his personality to his auxiliary memory circuits in his chest
Just wanted to say that holy hell, you have got Megatron SPOT ON in that first panel.
Man, I love this one.
Two thumbs up are not enough thumbs for this one.
Yyyyeeeah, NO.
You cannot say “that’d have happened” because there is no precedent Prime would have done that. In the series, he had Megs at his mercy plenty of times (and that was after a million-year old war, where he lost Dion among others) and he did not kill him, ever.
Also, while I am sure Prime would have shot Megatron as soon as he saw Megs was going for the gun, if there was no hidden weapon, I am also sure he would not have killed him. The other Cons were in retreat anyway (unlikely that Starscream would have mounted a rescue), lock away Megs to be used as a bargaining chip later, or just hold a trial for him.
So, “one shall fall” was a lie? That’s not like Prime either.
The obvious answer is that killing Megatron earlier in the war, prior to the show would have made for a really boring show. After that, Prime had to wait ’til he was in a PG rated movie before he could do any killing at all–same for Megatron. As soon as they’re away from the TV censors, kill they do!
You know in all this “one shall stand, one shall fall” talk I never actually have heard where that fall was defined as: ‘die’. Falling in this case could just mean in defeat. How do we know when he said that he meant either he was going to kill megatron or die himself?
I wholeheartedly Approve of this comic. That was a dick move on the part of TF3
Perhaps, but at least it showed a Prime with some actual brains, instead of the mush glopping round inside the G1 version’s head. “Hm, is Megatron sincere? I think f**king not.” Instead of sparing him again and again, with predictable results, the movie Prime did what any halfway intelligent soldier would do in the same situation.
I was surprised, but pleasantly so. Did not expect the movie to rise to such excellency; my litteral reaction was “Jesus Christ, prime, unresolved issues much? A bit overreacting?” – which made the character more alive to me. The movie Prime has his limits, and he is a lot grimmer/darker than the original. Me like.
Exactly! Anyone with a brain would choose to take out Megatron before he tries anything stupid or launches another evil scheme he had going!
By that reasoning Batman is clearly the stupidest hero in the DC universe. But anyways, it’s fiction: we like our heroes to be paradigms of idealism and to “turn the other cheek.” (Wherever that phrase originated.)
Plus a great hero always has a strong rogues gallery. I’d much rather see Spidey battle Doc Ock and send him back to jail then kill of Ock and have to read about Spidey battling a lame new foe like Typeface.
Batman doesn’t kill because he has psychological problems, plus he operates outside the law. But yeah, he should have offed Joker long ago. Or at minimal not tried to keep him from dying at least once. He’s a real hard recurring villain to justify, considering his bodycount.
Is it bad that I want a poster of the third panel?
I personally want a poster of that scene, but with Hot Rod instead of Megs.
Forget the poster – I want a ‘deleted scenes’ clip from the original animated movie with that in full motion and voice. This was for Ironhide.
The movie clearly goes out of its way to show that this time, Optimus is going to kill Megatron no matter what*. I’d say he did hesitate a bit when Megatron started pleading for mercy, but he also didn’t lower his gun at any point – he was perfectly willing to execute Megatron right then and there.
But heck, who cares about that? That movie was awesome, from start to finish! (And Hot Rod was a very interesting character with great storytelling potential who got the shaft because of stubborn fanboyism.)
* “Megatron must be stopped, no matter the cost.”
“One shall stand, one shall fall.”
“Why throw away your life so recklessly?” “That’s a question you should be asking yourself, Megatron.”
My problem with the ending was the context in which it happened. Megs did just save Prime, he could have waited to take down Sentinal after he finished off Prime for him, he could have taken down a one armed and severely battered prime after taking down Sentinal if he’d wanted to but he didn’t. Instead he offers a truce, which makes little sense if he plans on going back on it when he could just take out his main threats leader right then and there. All Megs would have to do is off Prime there and the Cons are set. He just needs to escape Chicago, ditch a handful of smaller autobots and humans and gather his forces which are numerous and all over the world. Yet he offers a truce. It doesn’t make much sense. In the 80′s movie he offers the truce because he’s clearly screwed, he’s trying to weasel his way out of it. Here, he’s got the upper hand.
I find now that as long as they are using the G1 designs, that I am willing to give a LOT of leeway.
If I remember correctly, Optimus ordered the Dinobots to “destroy” Devastator. I didn’t hear him mumble defeat or subdue at all.
As a fan from G1 on, I actually think that would be pretty damn awesome, just as shown. Hell, I can hear Cullen saying it.
(Okay, so he might use “slag” instead. Or not.)
Probably Scrape since Slag is derogatory in the UK.
Primus slaggit!
But what if MY Optimus Prime is Animated Optimus Prime?
What if MY Optimus was Movie Optimus? Oh wait…
This is one of the greatest things ever. I, too, get sick of the whining about how violent Optimus is in the movies. Hundreds, possibly thousands of humans get killed during a Decepticon invasion instigated by Sentinel Prime and Megatron AFTER the humans have given in to their demands and Optimus is wrong for killing the two mass murderers? One of whom murdered another Autobot? Demolishor in Revenge of the Fallen probably killed a few dozen innocent humans during his rampage, so, yes, he deserved a shot through the brain case, too.
Decepticons are essentially Nazis, and there are no holding facilities on Earth that we’ve seen in the movies to make taking prisoners even a feasible idea. There’s also no such thing as a Decepticon civilian, and Optimus Prime is, essentially, the entire Cybertronian government. I have no problem with him killing mass murderers.
…No, I’m pretty sure there are plenty of facilities on Earth that can hold Decepticons. There are places out there that can take direct hits from nuclear weapons, and Decepticons have gone down to a few SABOT rounds. Remove his internal weapons and his limbs, and there’s not a whole lot he can do. Also, there are still hundreds of Decepticons on Earth, who could easily kill thousands more people if the war isn’t ended in a practical way. Like, you know, capturing their leader and making him say “Pack up, boys. Cybertron’s gone. War’s over. We lost.”
And it’s not about the morality of killing them, it’s about the practicality of killing them. Megatron was filled with information, clearly desperate, and held a commanding position. Sentinel was supposed to be the great genius of his time, and could help rebuild. Demolishor posed no threat to anything in his wounded state, and his cryptic last words mean that he could be carrying vital information.
But then, the morality is also a factor. When you kill someone in a war or execute a prisoner, you usually try to make it clean. That’s why certain weapons or execution methods are forbidden; they cause unnecessary pain. You don’t see mustard gas anymore, not even against Nazis or terrorists, because it causes unnecessary pain.
Killing methods like grabbing someone’s head and ripping it off, pulling someone’s face apart with hooks, etc, would fall under this. There’s no need for methods like that when you can just shoot them, so they can only exist for the purpose of causing as much pain as possible. If a soldier did that, he’d probably get court-marshaled.
Final difference: When Cartoon Megatron asked for a truce, he was playing for time. When Movie Megatron asked for a truce, he seemed to be more willing to go for it. His entire goal throughout the films has been to ensure the survival of his race. Now, Cybertron, the solar harvester, and the Allspark are all gone. He has every reason to want to stop the fighting. Plus, he just saved Optimus’s life. If he’d wanted to kill Optimus, he’d have done so already.
REQUEST DENIED!! http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Rodimusprimerequestdenied.jpg
Who woulda guessed ol’ Rodimus would actually have the balls– er, gearbox to kill someone!
It’s better if you think of Optimus as a Judge Dredd-like figure.
Honestly? I like this version better than what happened. Hell, I know what a noble mech Prime was…but he also USUALLY(not always) saw the bigger picture. He would have shot THROUGH Hot Rod. Sure, Hot Rod MIGHT die…but killing Megatron would help so many more people…
Just like the ending of H. Beam Piper’s “Space Viking”, or a couple of episodes of “Firefly” and completely unlike any episode of “G.I. JOE”. When you’ve finally caught or cornered the evil guy, you frigging shoot the evil guy in the head. (Or boot him into your spaceship’s engine intake.) You don’t stop to chat, you don’t take him prisoner. Shoot. In. Head. It’s the only 100% certain way to ensure he’ll never be a problem to anyone ever again. ‘Course that makes TV executives wibble and and whine and cancel your show.
G1 Ironhide was the first TransFormer toy I ever had, and was my favorite out of the Autobots, so panel 5 felt… good. I even did a little fist-pump in the air when I read it.
Thank you for this comic. ^_^
Hey, wait- how was Megatron crawling on all fours in panel two, presumably too weak to stand, and then suddenly standing fully upright when he’s shot in panel three?