Let’s make him eat that beard.
Grrrrrr! He did that to my future fictional comic girlfriend….he’ll PAY!
Thanks Tony Harris, you’re helping alienate women even further from your already male-dominated culture.
I think the question that should have been asked is this: why do so many women at comiccons subjugate themselves to male stereotyping and ogling? You see some pretty intelligent costumes–things that Lucy would wear, and awesome zombie girls, and women dressed as female characters that don’t bend over for every guy–but you also see a lot of women dressing to stereotypes. Girls dressed as underage sex-dolls from anime, comic-book-starfire-esque fucktoys, and various female characters who basically just let men walk all over them, or basically just fulfill Frank Miller’s fantasies. I kinda wanna see Amber (or Lucy) comment on the costumes that are clearly there because girls ‘think’ this is what will make them liked–or because male comic book writers don’t give girls reasonable heroine alternatives. Let’s face it–there are WAY too many male-dominated comics with female hang-ons, and us girls dressing like them doesn’t exactly encourage that male-dominated culture to start pandering to what we actually want (which isn’t the huge-boob ideal).
Women can’t dress up as their favorite superhero if the character design is too revealing, because once that happens, men can’t be held accountable for how they react. See, it’s the woman’s fault. They were dressed in a certain way.
Thank you Dave, cause it’s important someone is bringing these things up and pointing them out. *Hugs* Thank you.
Kind of surprised David didn’t make this comic sooner.
Anyway,Tony Harris is a huge tool. I’m pretty sure he made all his dumbass comments because he’s butt-hurt about some cosplay chick shooting him down or not knowing who he is (because he thinks he is actually someone important in the comics industry).
For context, here is the main point of Tony Harris’s rant:
“dammit I am so sick and tired of the whole COSPLAY-Chiks. I know a few who are actually pretty cool-and BIG Shocker, love and read Comics.So as in all things, they are the exception to the rule. Heres the statement I wanna make, based on THE RULE: “Hey! Quasi-Pretty-NOT-Hot-Girl, you are more pathetic than the REAL Nerds, who YOU secretly think are REALLY PATHETIC. But we are onto you. Some of us are aware that you are ever so average on an everyday basis. But you have a couple of things going your way. You are willing to become almost completely Naked in public, and yer either skinny( Well, some or most of you, THINK you are ) or you have Big Boobies. Notice I didnt say GREAT Boobies? You are what I refer to as “CON-HOT”. Well not by my estimation, but according to a LOT of average Comic Book Fans who either RARELY speak to, or NEVER speak to girls. Some Virgins, ALL unconfident when it comes to girls, and the ONE thing they all have in common? The are being preyed on by YOU. You have this really awful need for attention, for people to tell you your pretty, or Hot, and the thought of guys pleasuring themselves to the memory of you hanging on them with your glossy open lips, promising them the Moon and the Stars of pleasure, just makes your head vibrate. ”
So yeah, except for a few “exceptions” you “cosplay-chiks” really need to stop preying on us poor defenseless men folk.
So…. many… sterotypes.
Though I think the real crime here is the random capitalization. Makes him SOUND as though HE’S randomly shouting WOOOOORDS.
all the words are capitalized
Maybe he THINKS he’s ACTUALLY Frank Miller.
With his FAAAAAAACE?
Thank you, I was wondering what the context was.
I think the most ridiculous part of his point is that, even if you take everything he says to be true and women just dress up to ‘prey’ on men, that still isn’t worse than how men treat women at cons. Maybe that’s actually why he’s doing it, since if they’re all liers trying to exploit you then it’s okay to treat them as sub-human.
The weird part about reading your summary is that the parts that seem like they should be parody are actually direct quotations.
I love how suddenly, if you don’t have a penis, your reasons for dressing up are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from those who do. I see. Suddenly you need to be really hot AND have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the character and story they’re from? Oh, and anyone (female) who hooks up with someone at a con needs to want that to turn into some kind of actual relationship; nobody (female) is allowed to just make out with someone they think is hot and then just leave. Cons apparently are supposed to be run just like exclusive night clubs, with patrons being checked at the door for appropriate levels of hotness and/or importance. No ugly people allowed.
–You know, I just asked my seven-year-old boy why he thought that guys might want to dress up when it wasn’t Hallowe’en. He thought a second and then said, “Because it’s fun.” So I asked him why girls might want to dress up when it wasn’t Hallowe’en, and he sort of side-eyed me and repeated, “Because it’s fun.”
“Do you think girls are going to have different reasons for dressing up just because they’re girls?”
So there you go, Mr. Harris. Out of the mouths of babes: Girls like to dress up in costumes for the EXACT SAME REASON guys do: Because it’s fun.
Now go stand in the corner until you figure that out too.
I totally agree. But I also think there’s some interesting interplay between this and the “male and female heroes wear revealing tights for different reasons” trope.
Give your seven year old a cookie.
And it works both ways, too. So what if some women *are* dressing up just to show off? Guys do that, too – you think that dude with really cut abs rocking that shirtless cosplay at the local con is doing so simply because he identifies with the character? =P
Pretty much this. There’s a nightclub in the city I live in that has a kind of “Geek/Goth” thing going on. Some nights they have a particular “Theme” going on- steampunk, vampires, anime, whatever- varies from week to week.
Now I am far more a geek than I ever will be a goth. Got nothing against Goths (in fact, that’s kind of my point here…) just not all that into the culture. Do I dress up on the Goth nights as a Goth? Hell yes! Why? For the fun, to try something new, and above all to enjoy the company of the awesome people I’ve gotten to know there. In a way that makes me a poser, I suppose, but the thing is that I was never “born into” the geeky habits I love. I started off as a “newb” to comic books and anime and other geek subgenres and kind of grew into them. So nuts to any asshat that tries to shut out newcomers just because they don’t know as much or maybe have more reasons to be getting into the hobby than a pure obsession.
Although to be fair, the act of dressing up as a male comic book character is a little different from dressing up as a female comic book character because the comic book world is already gender biased. Not defending him, what he said was atrocious. Just pointing out that the dynamic is different and would merit a proper analysis.
True enough. Sort of makes me think of my circumstances this year. I went as a female Green Lantern this year for Halloween, and went to a local comic shop’s event for it. I ended up having to modify what was LABELED as a “Sexy Green Lantern” costume. Bugged the crap out of me that I had to Google it like that, because “Sexy” wasn’t the reason for picking the costume.
Did I pick it because it was hot? No. I picked it because it looked the most like Arisia Rrab, an EXISTING female Lantern, and having gotten addicted to the pre-Blackest Night post-Rebirth arcs of the Green Lantern/Green Lantern Corps series, I freaking loved her character. She’s my favorite Lantern – and yes, I realize the origins of her that include her early relationship with Hal are a little weird and creepy. But that’s not the arc that I first read her in and that’s not the arc that I fell in love with her in. I first read her in the arc where she and Sodam Yat visit Daxam (fellow GLC readers know what part I’m talking about). She was kind and empathetic, but you still don’t mess with her – she’s fierce in battle, and she damn well stands up for herself. Her Willpower as it flows off her forms patterns both beautiful and intricate; her self-made uniform is cute and feminine, but allows for easy movement with no body shame (yes, I realize it’s also fan service for male readers, but she’s one of those rare characters that can get away with it without, at current, seeming like she’s JUST fanservice, rather than a confident woman). She’s a woman, she won’t hide that, but she’s also tough and fierce. She is who she is, and she doesn’t let anyone else dictate that for her. She wears the clothes she likes, and she doesn’t go down without a fight.
In an earlier comic (that I read out of order), when she first is reintroduced, she’s revealed to have regenerated from her previous “death” – she was strangled, and because of that, she was mistakenly buried alive by her friends who weren’t familiar with her species’ biology. A villain steals her out of her grave to use her like a living battery.
You know what she does? She manages to psychically reach out to Hal Jordan to snap him out of his funk. While being held captive. The moment the villain turns his back on her to taunt Hal Jordan about him being a failure because woe-is-her for having been buried alive and it’s all Hal’s fault, blah blah… Arisia wakes up, sneaks up on him, slices his arm off with a cheerfuly defiant grin and says:
“You’ve GOT to be kidding. Oh, I’m sorry, did that hurt?”
Arisia Rrab is AWESOME. She’s everything I love in a female character – fiercely independent, without being a narcissistic bitch; beautiful without being only fan service; strong in battle without the writers sacrificing her femininity or creativity. She’s kind, artistic, empathetic, feminine… and total, utter badass as well! Which is why I wanted to go as her. She’s. AWESOME.
Funny part is, her costume is MORE revealing than the actual “Sexy Green Lantern” costume (the skirt’s about the same length, but the top she has is waaaay less “fabric”). I ended up going more generic with it partly because of that. When they asked me which Lantern I was supposed to be I then cheerfully explained “I’m a female Lantern that doesn’t exist yet, because there aren’t enough of them!” but I noted that “I originally wanted to go as Arisia, but you know, her top is kind of impossible without a construct…” That got a great laugh XD
So yeah, sometimes the reason for dressing up ISN’T different, and yet, the costumes do end up “sexier” for women, and sometimes even when the costume is directly copied from a female character or even more CONSERVATIVE than it, it’s only findable in female form if you look for “Sexy” costumes.
So, there’s problematic elements to it still. But there’s still the fact that some of us women really do just like the characters.
But hey, you know what would be the perfect cure for “the problem of finding out if girls are dressing as superheroines because they like them or because they want attention?” Writing heroines who are GOOD characters (hello, Batwoman!), or you know, making the costumes less “sexy” to begin with.
Also, I’d like to note that there’s a weird assumption on his part that women who dress in an outfit that happens to be sexy, are automatically looking for sex or a relationship. Dude. I’m ENGAGED. I’m not going to a con or a Halloween event in costume to pick up people – I’m going in costume because, to quote the 7-year-old, “it’s fun!”.
So… he is Malaya or something? O_o
Appreciate the context; I had no idea what this comic was referring to. I wonder how many cosplaying women he’s actually spoken to. All the one’s I’ve spoken to seemed to know comics. Admittedly, I haven’t spoken to that many; I figure I’d just come enough as another creepy guy.
Also, I feel like if someone doesn’t really care about comics and just likes dressing up at cons, that’s fine; it just means the cons can be bigger, better, and more frequent, and that we get to see more costumes.
I’ve dressed up as characters I don’t know as a favor to friends who wants to do a group of characters they love. I dreaded getting separated from the group.
If a person approaches me demanding that I pass some sort of geek quiz to justify my wearing a costume, then I’ll usually just fake that I have no idea what I’m wearing until they leave. I’m not wasting my limited con time on people like that.
… what the hell did I just read.
Thanks for the back story…Had no idea!
And may I say, having no clue about who this guy is or WHY he felt the need to rant…He not only slams the cosplay girls but his commentary on the guys who are supposedly being used by said girls is also very unflattering. A guy goes is into comics, goes to cons, ok, he’s a geek (& I mean that in the nicest way so that means he is an “unconfident”, possibly a virgin, etc etc. WAY TO STEREO TYPE your (I assume) audience Nice guy…
Where on earth did this dude get the idea that chicks like to think about men jacking off? In my experience, that’s kind of not actually most women’s priority. At all.
Jacking each other off, sure.
Man, I was afraid 4chan had stolen my sensitivity to the fucked up shit people do/think/say, but I’m glad it hasn’t entirely.
What an enormous douchebag.
See, I’m getting a little tired of that one. I mean, no, Harris is kind of a lousy person, or at least he said some awful things. But everyone’s kneejerk is “I bet he’s just mad because a hot cosplayer turned him down.”
The man’s got a wife and kids. He mentioned them specifically in his nonpology (he can’t have said misogynistic things because he totally respects his wife and two daughters. And his mother.). Sure, he still could have been extra sleazy and hit on a cosplayer, but…
But why does everyone look for a reason that he did this? And why make it an insulting one: “he knows he can’t score with them, so he’s bitter!” That just muddies up the whole thing, and turns it into both sides shouting insults at each other, and dangit, the election is over, I’m done with that.
The issue is simply: This guy said some seriously insulting things about women and made it clear that they are only welcome in his fandom if they play by his rules. And that first they must pass…The Test! Oh, and also, nerdmen are sad, lonely people ready to be preyed upon.
There’s no need to speculate some outside info to insult the man. Everything in his little essay does that job just fine.
Also, I kind of want to print up some business card-type things that say something like:
“This card certifies that ________________________ has passed the Test Of The Nerd and holds the official title of True Geek.”
And pass ‘em out at cons after administering The Test. (“Are you a geek?” “Yes!” “Here you go.”)
And then tell every girl who gets one to pass by Harris’s table and flash it at him. No big confrontation, just a walk-by, flash, “You need to see my verification, sir?” “Just so you know…” “No, it’s okay, I’m allowed to be here.” “My papers are in order, sir.” etc, and just walk on by.
I get the mental image of Harris spending a whole weekend at a con where every ten minutes or so, he gets that quick interruption, over and over again. And it makes me smile.
The guy did kind of go into a whole schpeal about how these women will never contact you after the convention and that’s a sure sign that they secretly hate you. Think a lot of us interpreted that as a pretty transparent case of projection in his own failure to acquire e-mail addresses and hook up with people after the convention.
I agree with Laura.
If there is something more specific behind his views on women who cos-play other than the unfortunately quite common misogyny, it would be that they attract more attention than he does. That is at least what he says in the last part:
“Your [sic!] just the thing that all the Comic Book, AND mainstream press flock to at Cons”
while it should be all about him:
“…the real reason for the Con, and the damned costumes yer [sic!] parading around in? That would be Comic Book Artists, and Comic Book Writers”…
Yeah, that was what I took from it, that he’s a misogynistic jackass who also happens to be mad about costumers getting attention to which he feels entitled.
Can I help design the cards? I’m sure I have some somewhere pre-designed.
I like that, its a practical solution not based on assumptions.
Would their be different levels of tests? like grading of your nerdism? does it last a year? or more like a drivers license?
This would not only prove that most doing cosplay really do it out of love for their medium (and partly out of love for the artform of cosplay itself if its a more elaborate custom)…but if there are any of these cosplayers going to so much effort just pretending to love something it will quickly show them up!
Demand too see nerd ID!
Is the love of cosplay, regardless of knowledge of character, not of itself geek enough to be allowed its own full fledged branch? Simply “Hey I like how that /looks/, I’m going to emulate it.”?
Considering how much work a good costume can take, I’d definitely say yes to that!
Though someone taking it really serious should at least get some basic knowledge of the character in my opinion. But then that might just as well be the rpg-player (and larper) in me speaking. I certainly won’t shun someone for not having it! Just thinking he/she didn’t go all the way with the costume and that’s that.
I’ve actually went as a character I had no idea about before, it was a group of friends and we wanted to all cosplay from the same thing, so after debate it was decided Naruto. Mainly because the one making all the arrangements was a huge fan.
‘Course the fun part was trying to figure out how to use eyeliner since I ended up going as Gaara.
Very, very, VERY well-said.
“But why does everyone look for a reason that he did this? And why make it an insulting one: “he knows he can’t score with them, so he’s bitter!” That just muddies up the whole thing, and turns it into both sides shouting insults at each other, and dangit, the election is over, I’m done with that”
You want the brutally honest answer? Instinct. Our brains naturally look for reasons to behaviors we don’t understand. When we can’t find an obvious reason, we tend to assign a negative one to a person’s behavior. Wish I could remember the psychological term for it. Having ADD means I encounter this sort of thing a lot. People assume that because I’m not responding as expected in a situation that I’m deliberately doing it to antagonize them rather than I’m flat out unaware I’m doing something unexpected. On top of that I think when people are shown a behavior or opinion they disagree with they want to ascribe motives to it that belittle the person and therefore make them feel more awesome.
Assumptions are like the worst thing about our brains.
I say take it a simple step further: no test. They’re at a Con, which means they explicitly paid money to go to a place of fandom and geekery. (As one snarky webcomic writer said once: “Congratulations, you paid extra money to be able to go to an exclusive sales place and buy stuff!”) I’d call that reason enough to consider them valid and deserving of the card.
Lara you missed a key point: Nerdmen are sad lonely men and that makes women who dress up for fun predators. Evil witches who dress up not for their own enjoyment but because they’re sadistic dominatrixes who get off on torturing men– but they’re ugly dominatrixes who FORCE THEMSELVES onto these Nerdmen (by being within their eyesight apparently) because they can’t find REAL men to dom. By dressing up they are screaming “I put out!” and then cackling evilly as the men believe her then sauntering off as they clutch their thwarted errections in agony. They are manhating and frigid/lesbian.
How dare they flaunt their false promises in public. This is exactly like rape. Those men have been raped. Occularly. They need to stop raping these poor men.
(Only hot chicks are allowed to crush mens testicles. They EARNED it.)
A+ would lol again.
Yeah, that’s kind of what I got out of it. His tirade says a lot more about him and how he sees the world than it does about both the men and women he’s talking about. Not in the “he’s just pissed” way, but in a “man, he has a messed up worldview” sort of way.
I love this idea. Let me know if you ever get those cards designed. I would totally do that at the next con.
True. It’s not like bias and discrimination need to be caused directly by sour grapes. They can stem from some more general issues or just be taught.
I just wanted to declare my platonic love for you.
So the two men tagged are Arch (which is the fat guy in a white shirt complimenting the other guy) and Mack Barrass, who was only tagged in this comic, so I’m assuming he is the “slut” guy.
Haven’t we seen the red-haired guy on the right before? I feel like I have.
When I first read this strip I felt like I needed more context, but now I think no amount of context will validate Mack’s actions.
Mack, you’re a douchebag, please die
Did not realize that it was supposed to be Tony Harris. I wonder why nobody corrected me?
I manage a small library in my university and if I find any books authored by him I’m going to remove them. He doesn’t deserve any endorsement in geek culture.
If it makes you feel better, I didn’t know who Tony Harris was until reading the comments.
I knew the name sounded familiar, so I Googled him. I really liked his work on “Starman,” and I read his “Doctor Strange” mini, as well. If I’d known back then what a douchebag he is, I wouldn’t have helped support him by buying comics he’d drawn.
Now, now. No need to censor him. Censorship ain’t the way.
Just don’t ever recommend his comics.
What a magnificent head of hair… has that asshole.
Anyway, glad the site’s okay.
Thank you David Willis, genuinely thank you. This trend in the nerd/geek subculture is really disturbing and it is really important for people to call people out on their misogyny if this sort of thing is going to stop. Again, thank you.
Tony Harris seemed to pretty clearly state that he was not referring to cosplayers that are actual comics fans, but instead people who dress up for attention without any conception or care of the character.
So he wouldn’t have been talking about Lucy. It would be more accurate if Maylaya was the one dressed up instead.
Oh, okay, he was only talking about cosplayers who don’t dress up for the reasons he wants them to. That makes it much better to call them sluts.
Unless I am mistaken, nowhere did he call anyone a “slut” other than this comic strip. He called people “liars”.
Uh, he also said that girls who cosplay and like comics are the “exception to the rule” and most are just there to “prey” on the men at Cons.
And? I don’t agree with Harris that nonfan attention seekers are the majority of cosplayers, but there is still a big difference between that and calling a woman a “slut”.
He clearly stated he has no problem with cosplayers who are actual fans. While it’s idiotic of him to try and determine who is and isn’t a fan, this is not the same as a universal dismissal of all female cosplayers.
Yes, he allowed for very few exceptions. How noble of him.
And again, the character in this strip that is being called a “slut” (not something Harris ever actually said) is someone who fits said exception.
Because as we all know, slut has a measurable definition, which is why it is a legitimate insult, and not a way to shame women. Yep. Also, he only insulted A LOT of women, not ALL of them. Tony Harris is a real good guy.
>you are ever so average on an everyday basis.
>You are willing to become almost completely Naked in public
>you have Big Boobies. Notice I didnt say GREAT Boobies?
>what I refer to as “CON-HOT”
>average Comic Book Fans
>Some Virgins, ALL unconfident when it comes to girls
>The are being preyed on by YOU.
>You have this really awful need for attention for people to tell you your pretty, or Hot
>the thought of guys pleasuring themselves to the memory of you
>hanging on them with your glossy open lips, promising them the Moon and the Stars of pleasure
>that just makes your head vibrate.
Memyself: He didn’t use the word slut or whore, but he used everything from the dictionary definition of worth words. It’s completely fair to sum up what he said in those terms because that was what he was codespeaking.
“I didn’t say she was a slut! I just said she was all the things that define a slut! But I didn’t use that word, and how dare you slander me by saying I called her that awful word which makes me a terrible person if I direct it at a woman! You just can’t handle someone speaking truth to power. Anyway I was just trying to provoke a conversation on the subject.”
He said everything that is used to define a slut? Minus the main one: Promiscuous.
That’s a major part of the definition, and he did not say it. In fact, he implied the opposite.
@Memyself: And yet, many, many women (and men) who he supposedly didn’t mean to insult are insulted. And when a lot of people are seeing the same insulting interpretation, a person who isn’t trying to cause offense generally drops the defense and just apologizes.
Which has what to do with what? You’re not saying anything here that I have argued against or disagree with.
There is a difference between finding his words offensive and his words being targeted at you.
@Memyself I believe it would fair to interpret his words as “Why aren’t you putting out? FAKE SLUTS!”
He included every other part of the definition of slut and then complained about their LACK of promiscuous behavior to go along with things. This tirade is all about the sluttiness of women.
Last I checked, “slut” does have a widely accepted “measurable” definition. A sexually promiscuous woman.
He insulted women who fit a very specific criteria. Women who only attend conventions for male attention with little to no knowledge or care for the material they are emulating.
He was specific in this. These woman may only really exist in his mind, but still… if the woman in question does not fit that definition, then he wasn’t talking about them.
So, you think alot of women fit that definition then?
“He was specific in this. These woman may only really exist in his mind, but still… if the woman in question does not fit that definition, then he wasn’t talking about them.”
Doesn’t work like that.
He’s clearly talking to somebody, and he’s talking to a certain set of people that he believes is so large that he seems them in droves at every con.
And he’s addressing them assuming their motivations, which are something can’t know.
Let’s say there’s a drove of Slave Leia girls and he shouts this stuff that “they’re only dressing up for attention because they wanna feel hot.” Maybe one or two of them are. Maybe some of them aren’t HUGE Star Wars fans, but like the costume. Maybe ALL of them are. Maybe NONE of them are. But since his qualifier is both arbitrary and imaginary….he’s basically addressing all of them. Because he’s making it very clear in his comment that if he sees a “quasi-pretty” girl in a sexy costume, he automatically assumes that they’re Fake Geek Girls.
That’s what he’s doing–he’s addressing a whole lot of women based on pure assumption of their motivation. Not cool.
(Oh, and also, again, what does the motivation matter, they’re having fun, blah blah a billion.)
Yes, he’s insulting a whole lot of women that fit his (imaginary) criteria.
If he said: “All women who wear red shirts with yellow dots are whores, and I think all women wear red shirts with yellow dots are whores. Women who don’t wear red shirts with yellow dots are just fine and I like them!” – most women will realize
A: They have never worn a red shirt with yellow dots.
B: These women are not them.
C: This man needs medication.
Yes, Harris made blanket assumptions and generalizations. But he also made a clear caveat. If you don’t meet his criteria, he’s not insulting you specifically. That hardly makes his comments right, mind you.
As to your other post: You say he was very specific in his dislike of cosplay? No. He was specific in his dislike of cosplay under a specific set of circumstances – which most of us understand barely exists.
Sorry. Ignore that last bit. It was someone else I meant that for.
Again. No. Because this isn’t happening in a vacuum. There’s not really a stigma against women who wear red shirts with yellow dots. There is a stigma against women in the male nerdspace.
I did the “blah blah” at the end, but that’s wrong, because it glosses over the important part:
What he’s telling us, in that maddened rant, is that when he sees a moderately attractive woman, or a “quasi-pretty” (seriously, I freaking love that) woman cosplaying at a convention, his automatic assumption about her is that she is a Fake Nerd, and an attention whore who wants to lead men on (and for the record, you can say the definition of “slut” is one that requires promiscuity, but that’s just a dictionary definition, not a social one at all. The word “slut” is thrown out as a critique against women who merely look or act available, whether or not they’re actually having sex. And according to Harris, being hot and being friendly to nerds at the same time is “acting available”–without actually being, which sets up the whole “cocktease” concept, which is a whole ‘nother can of worms.) Anyway. Wait. Where was I?
Ah, yes. You can say, “oh, it was only directed at Those Kinds Of Women.”
And that’s a milquetoast argument at best, base semantics and not just a bit of weaseling.
Because what he’s told us–what he has told all nerd women who cosplay anything that might be hot–is that unlike the men at a con, we are Fake Until Proven Real. If I approached Harris at a con in a Black Canary costume, he would sneer and assume that I, quasi-pretty gal that I am, am merely trying to get male attention, and that I am a False Nerd with no real Geekly Knowledge. I mean, I could present to him my BFA that is literally in comics. But.
And until I do something to Prove Myself, I have no geekly worth in Tony effing Harris’s eyes. I do not deserve to be at a con. Now, I can know in my little nerdy heart that I am a True Geek. I can look at my longboxes and action figures and go “Yes, I know myself.” I can take a leaf from Rainbow Raider’s book and shout: “I BELIEVE IN ME!”
But that doesn’t mean that Harris and hundreds of men like him, if the “huzzah” that this gets from the dudebro community every time someone goes on a rant about “Fake Geek Girls” is anything to judge by, don’t treat me like I am less than them. It doesn’t mean that they don’t treat my fellow fangirls like they are less than them.
As I said, Harris is making assumptions about motivation. His assumptions are wrong, but he’s still looking right at people and thinking, “that skanky attention whore, you don’t belong here.” And he’s trying to gather a rallying cry of “No Ma’am”-esque followers, because really, that’s what women need more of in nerdspace–bullying and men who feel entitled to some kind of favor.
Gotta say–going on about semantics and “what words were used” over what the overall message was is a little bit cheap and derailing. I’m sure you don’t mean it to, but it comes off very much as, “No, ladies, you don’t need to be offended. Here, let me explain why.”
You don’t seem to understand. I’m not defending what Harris said. I’m simply not in favor of inferring meaning he did not specify.
And anyone can be offended about what he said, female or male. Cosplayer or non-cosplayer. Fan or non-fan.
But that doesn’t mean it was being said about them.
Yes, Harris has set himself up as a goalkeeper. That’s stupid of him. You’re clarifying that, yet nothing I have said has contradicted this. In fact, it’s been quite the opposite.
I do understand what you’re saying. I’m saying that…it’s not right.
“Inferring meanings he did not specify” is…look, there’s more ways to call someone a slut than to actually spell out ess-ell-you-tee. Harris’s post basically calls “these women” everything that is understood by our social mores as the social meaning of the word “slut.”
“It doesn’t mean he said it about them.”
Yes. It does. To keep arguing that, no he’s not talking about you is being pedantic and not just a bit…gosh, I hate this stupid term so much, but it’s edging towards “mansplaining.” It’s just a pointless, derailing sort of argument.
Harris shouted this out on the internet instead of at someone’s face, but it’s a cry against all the women he sees who wear skimpy costumes, because he doesn’t believe that any of them are real nerds until they prove it. Any girl who stands before him in a Black Canary or Slave Leia costume knows now that he thinks they are Fake Nerd Girls. He’s talking about them.
Look. Person A is in a Slave Leia costume. Dickface B says that she is a Fake Nerd Girl here to be an attention whore with her quasi-hot body. Person A is, in fact, none of those things. Does that mean Dickface B wasn’t addressing her.
Knock it off. There’s literally no point to being like, “well, guys, you’re not angry at the right part of this…”
Again, no. You do not understand.
Yes, of course it means all these people in Harris’ mind. Yes, what Harris said was offensive to people. Not to women. Not to men. Not to cosplayers… but to people. You do not need to meet his specific criteria to be offended by what he said. And the reason what he said was offensive was the generalization.
But the criteria he advanced fits almost no one. To clarify what I was saying earlier: His criticisms do not apply. As in the case of Lucy in teh strip – Harris might make that assumption, but it is a incorrect assumption.
I’ve already told you that we are not saying different things. I do not understand why you keep arguing against this.
I think the fact that you even brought up the Rainbow Raider qualifies you as a comics geek. And the fact that I understood the reference makes me one, too, I guess. :/
The issue is that he thinks he should judge cosplayers at all. On what basis is it fair to judge anyone’s reasons for dressing up in a costume? What makes cosplay so unique that he is entitled to demand that cosplayers pass some sort of nerd purity litmus test before it’s ok for them to dress up? The problem is that his assumptions are sexist and that out of all the things he could have written about, he decided that he was going to focus on how girls who aren’t nerdy enough shouldn’t cosply because they are just foul-temptresses following in Eve’s footsteps to seduce the innocent Adams of nerddom. The problem is that this obnoxious Eve narrative continues to excuse the failings of men and refuses to question their responsibility for their feelings and behaviors.
There doesn’t need to be an “and”. Yeah, the specific insult Willis used in this comic is not specifically the horrible bigoted sexist thing that he said.
What he said was still bigoted and sexist.
And for it not being “the same as a universal dismissal of female cosplayers”. Sorry, but I’m calling bullshit right there. Claiming “there are a few exceptions” is just as bad as saying all of x group are y.
(Reminds me of my (evil) dad who loves to say shit like “god, black people are so stupid… except for the ones like Al, of course,” and then acts like I’M the one out of line when I call him racist because he “SAID there are exceptions, of course.”)
Look, if you’re one of the good ones, you shouldn’t be offended. Everyone is so politically correct. I’m just telling it like it is. You know how those people are.
Yes, there absolutely does need to be an “and”. Because your statement was unclear and did not seem to address what I had actually said.
Yes, the specific insult Willis used in this comic is not what Harris said. Glad we agree on that. Yes, he said other sexist things. So why attribute things to him that he did not say? Is there a lack of accurate ammunition laying around? No.
As I already said: He clearly stated he has no problem with cosplayers who are actual fans. While it’s idiotic of him to try and determine who is and isn’t a fan, this is not the same as a universal dismissal of all female cosplayers.
Is it still sexist? Sure. But you can still have two sexist statements that are not identical despite both being sexist. Consequently, your race argument (one I have also heard far to often in my life) is not really applicable here.
You can call bullshit all you like, but he still said what he said. Harris stated he has no problem with fans. He just doesn’t believe the majority of cosplayers are actual fans. But by his own statements, he would have no real problem with the character of Lucy. Lucy is (as has been pointed out many times) a fan.
But by his own statements, he would have no real problem with the character of Lucy. Lucy is (as has been pointed out many times) a fan.
But how he would know that? By his own statements, the majority aren´t fans.
The Michaels’s (race) argument is perfectly applicable. Every rule has exceptions, that’s a given, but ours minds work around the normal, the regular, the probable, NOT the exceptions.
An example, we know that certain medicaments can cause severe and fatal reactions in a very small slice of the population. We don’t call these medicaments “poison”, we call them “medicaments”, even if it is true only 99.9999% of the time.
Sorry if I ain’t clear. English is not my first language.
It’s perfectly clear, a few odd bits in there, but we all have idiosyncratic things in our speech patterns, even us native speakers.
One that stood out a lot though, was ‘medicaments’ – we usually say ‘medicines’ or ‘medications’ in English. I kind of like the word medicaments, though. I assume that’s the word in your first language?
As people pointed out, he’d probably have a problem with Lucy, because she’s not a “real fan”–she doesn’t currently read any DC comics, and doesn’t know much about the continuity either, just what she’s gleaned from television.
You know, as a woman, I think I’m going to have to point out something that, perhaps, you might not be aware of. I mean no snark here – this is literally me trying to help you see why people are “calling bullshit” on the idea that his rant can’t be summed up with the word “slut”, even though he “didn’t use” that word.
There is something called “slutshaming”, that is pretty much always directed at women. The funny thing about this thing called “slutshaming” is in fact you need not say that a woman is ACTUALLY having sex to “slutshame” them.
All you need to do is say that she’s ACTING in “sexy” ways that you or your culture find somehow unacceptable, and then imply that they are inferior or shameful for it. This ESPECIALLY includes “trying to get attention from men”, or “going half-naked in public” or displaying “big boobs”, all of which are actual things he accused these large swathes of women of doing.
There are lots of ways of saying “your expression of what I’m interpreting to be sexuality is unworthy and unacceptable, and you are not a ‘real’ person to me and deserve reprimand”… without using the word “slut”.
But trust me, those are STILL “slutshaming”. Because it’s still, in every real social sense, a shaming tool for women who are considered “unacceptable”, or somehow inferior, or “attention-whores”, by IMPLYING, regardless of merit or truth, that she is “acting” somehow promiscuous, the tease.
And ANY set of words that has that same shaming effect, that same you-are-inferior connotation along with suggesting she is making use of her sexuality rather than brains or merit or (in this case) actual fandom, is still slutshaming.
It does not matter that he didn’t use the word “slut”. It’s what his other words add up to – he’s shaming these women for showing their bodies, because he’s assuming, accusing them of, doing it “for attention” and to “prey on” men, rather than any innocent reason. Oh sure, he allows for exceptions… but he’s also doing that as sheer deflection, just so he can say “no, see, if you really do it because you love the character, then I’m not talking to YOU…” which is bullshit on his part, because the implication is still there that “unless he knows that’s why you’re doing it, he’s going to assume you’re doing it for attention, that you’re just trying to be ‘sexy’ to ‘prey on men’”. It’s a false exception, because in reality, he’s not assuming that by default – he’s assuming the opposite.
What he’s assuming is that until proven otherwise, women who dress in costumes that happen to be somebody’s idea of “sexy”, are ONLY doing it for attention, attention that is, he makes VERY clear, based entirely around sex appeal.
Throwing “literal” dictionary definitions to weasel around it because you don’t see it doesn’t help, and just makes you look like you don’t understand the REAL reason people are upset. The real reason women are upset about this is because of what the implications are, all of which add up to slutshaming; to shaming a woman for her perceived sexual expression not being “acceptable”, or to assuming women are in a male space only because they want sex-appeal-based attention.
You know that it’s sexist – that’s good. But there’s more reasons than the ones you know of – implications that he makes very hard for any woman to miss – that compound the sexism. And the words he used ARE “slutshaming words”. He’s accusing women of dressing “half-naked” and flaunting sexual assets like “big boobs”, and then suggesting that this is awful and they are awful people and they don’t deserve to be there because they’re “preying” on men. That? That is slutshaming. To any woman alive, it is very, very obvious slutshaming, at that.
It’s honestly hard for me to miss that and almost as hard for me to believe that a person can. I really, really, REALLY am stressing here that I’m not being snarky and am just wondering here… do you have something like Asperger’s? There’s no shame in it if you do (just a different way of being and all). I’m just wondering, because people who are, do often take things really literally, and it can be hard for them to pick up on “emotional implications”, and that would explain why you’re so focused on the literal definitions that you miss the “obvious” implications.
Despite whatever dictionary you have read, the SLANG meaning of “slut” – the “between the lines” meaning – and the meaning of the term “slutshaming” in particular, definitely cover what he said, regardless of whether or not he used the term “slut”. Speaking as a woman, I can confirm that people don’t use it just to refer to women who are actively having lots of sex – they use it as a term to denigrate any woman FOR her sexuality, including accusations that she’s using her sexiness or her body for selfish personal gain. That’s why the term “slutshaming” exists – to describe instances like that.
And that is EXACTLY what he’s accusing what he implies is the majority of female cosplayers of: using their bodies for selfish personal gain (attention at the expense of male geeks). He doesn’t even have to use the word “slut” – he’s still slutshaming them.
I’m familiar with the concept, but I disagree with the loose manner in which it is applied. The term has it’s origins in rape victims being blamed for being raped because of the manner in which they dressed/behaved.
By attaching a loaded title to the words Harris used, you eliminate any and diminish all other motivations. Let’s be realistic – all cosplayers seek a degree of attention. Harris may have made mention of the lack of clothing or the act of using one’s body for attention. But these are secondary to his true complaint – his perception that these women are not real fans.
What he says his very clear here. The “reason” the nakedness and teh titillation bother him is because these women (purportedly) no nothing about comics. By dropping his argument down to “slut”, you ignore the primary component of his rant in favor of the secondary component.
Actually, he called them attention whores and stated they were “preying” on the desires of nerdy men. He also included men in this with a follow-up statement in response to all the arguing about his first one.
He doesn’t like cosplay. He stated this specifically. He considers what he does to be very serious work and watching people parade around in costumes, to him, is mocking his work. He tolerates the fans who actually know the characters and comics they pay tribute to, but he doesn’t care for the medium they use to do it.
As far as I’m concerned, he’s just a pompous ass. He should just accept that pretty girls and handsome boys like comics too. It’s not an exclusive club for shut-ins, it never really was, it did carry a stigma of being “childish” for a time so not everyone admitted they were into it. “Nerd Culture” is becoming mainstream, however, so more people are coming forward and expressing their love of these things without the fear of being socially ostracized, and it’s pissing off a lot of the “hardcore” groups.
He should get over it and be glad his medium is finally getting the attention and respect it deserves from the masses.
Most of the stuff I’ve seen on Cons (I haven’t been to any, unfortunately) are filled with men and women who genuinely love the medium. They just want to show their love. Sure, some of them are paid for pictures while they’re there, and some are hired because they make amazing costumes and look amazing in them, that doesn’t make then any less of a fan. One of the names I see in a lot of Cons, for the cosplayers anyway, is Yaya. She is a huge geek(in the sense that she is into some pretty obscure things and talks about them, at length, with no regard if you care because she is excited about it ><). She is also smoking hot. She has been asked to dress as various comic and video game characters by their creators, to have a real life representation people could meet and take pictures with. She only accepts the ones she knows, and likes(and makes her own costumes for them). She also goes to plenty without invite or payment. Hell, she went to one dressed as a human Rarity from MLP and that is not a fandom anyone wants to associate with right now. She enters contests at the cons, has done a few of the plays (the only one I saw was of a vampire queen from a rather obscure anime). She gets a lot of flak for being into these things, because people think she's just there as eye candy. She loves every character she plays, she gets in character (chased some people around as Catwoman and kept catching them with her whip at some point), she always looks likes she is having fun and I hear she is very nice and knowledgeable and loves talking about the characters to anyone who will listen.
She is awesome and I bet Tony Harris would hate her. Not because she is a girl dressing up, not because she is a fan in costume, not because she's in his way or bothering him, but because she is attractive and likes comics. I don't think he can accept that pretty people like the things he was probably picked on for liking. You know what? A lot of us were. That doesn't make their enjoyment of it any less real.
He needs to grow up.
Also, Lucy is adorable. I want to hang out with her, I bet she'd play Mario Kart with me.
>Hell, she went to one dressed as a human Rarity from MLP and that is not a fandom anyone wants to associate with right now.
Man, what cons have you been going to? Are they being hosted in a bizarro universe where MLP: FiM is not insanely popular?
She (? I’m assuming based on the picture) explicitly said she hadn’t been to any, and was basing her comment on second-hand knowledge. I will say the fandom for MLP does seem to be somewhat disliked, and that Detroit Fanfare comic con didn’t have any MLP characters that I remember seeing (though there problem were some; I’m not actually familiar with the material, I just don’t remember seeing anyone dressed like a horse).
All the commentary I’ve seen recently seems to conflate MLP:FIM fandom with drawing sexual pictures of children’s show characters. Which is not the same thing, but many (such as Howard Stern listeners) seem to think its one and the same.
Sorry to derail, but that’s probably what that means.
I just realized I wrote “problem” instead of “probably”. Which is weird; it’s not like the words are that similar.
Well, it’s more that “Bronies” are somewhat looked down on by other fandoms.
In fact, I’ll be honest: I totally believe it when friends of mine and total strangers alike say that MLP:FIM is a good, cute, entertaining series. And I admit, I like the fact that for once, a “girly” show is popular with guys, especially when it’s done by a female creator. That shows progress and it shows that sexist assumptions about entertainment – and makers of entertainment – are stupid. I like that. And I like the idea that the creator is a woman who is artistic and hardworking and extremely successful with both genders despite producing an allegedly “girly” series, and that she’s getting to do other cool stuff in the future (I’ve heard rumors of a series about an all-female superhero team that she proposed and was turned down for at Cartoon Network, that she’s now getting to do).
All of that is cool.
But nonetheless, the Bronies I know, even the friends, are SO OBNOXIOUS about “sharing their love” so much of the time, that it has made me put off watching the series. There is only so much obsession about something I’m not into, that I can take at once, and I think a lot of other people have felt the same way.
Nonetheless, someday I’ll probably try it, and I’ll probably at least think it’s cute, and I’ll certainly give that superheroine show a try if it comes out. But the obsessive fandom? I… try to stay away from that.
And yes, full disclosure: I realize this is probably karma for my equally blind Firefly obsession a few years ago. But I outgrew the blind “but everybody would love it if they tried it” assumptions about a year later. I’m still waiting for that to happen with some of the Bronies I know, heh.
The upside to this though is that I am conscious now of how utterly irritating it is to be on the other side of that, so I’m a little more aware of how enthusiastically I, er, “promote” my own fannish loves.
No, but he insisted they were cockteases who were just there to prey on the weak, defenseless males who can’t control themselves when they see any amount of skin on a female. He also said costumers who actually have any interest in the genre are exceptions to the rule and proceeded to shame them for not having perfect bodies.
And he was pretty fucking clear about all of that, too.
And he should be criticized for the things he DID say. Not things he did not.
I think the point everybody is making is that he did, essentially, call female cosplayers sluts. He may have backpeddled SLIGHTLY to quantify his statement later, but he still said:
1. that female cosplayers (with few exceptions) are there for attention
2. that they are preying on weak virginal men
3. blah blah boobs not as hot as I want you to be blah
The word “slut” pretty much summarizes exactly what he said.
Your caveat there is “essentially”. Fact is, he did not call “actually” anyone a slut. You (and others) are free to infer that he meant it, but it does not change his choice of wording.
There is enough to address with words he actually used. No reason to add ones in that he didn’t.
One of the problems is that Tony Harris has presumed to know the minds of others rather than accepting their words or actions at face value. So don’t do what he did. To be clearer – accept his words and actions at face value.
Uh… that’s like saying that if he had said “cosplayers sell their bodies for money” then it’s OK because he didn’t actually use the word “prostitute.”
Just because he only describes what he considers slut behavior, and “only” uses the word whore, that doesn’t somehow make it better.
I didn’t say it made it “better”. What he said was onerous, but there’s still no reason to put words in his mouth that he did not use.
“And he should be criticized for the things he DID say. Not things he did not.”
You are right. This is unfair ….
… but, hey, he was unfair too! So, that make it all even, no?
Didn’t read all the exchange below because it seriously looks like a snake biting its own tail… If what I’m saying was already clarified by someone else, please excuse me for repeating.
Well, yup, Harris didn’t use the S word, but there is one thing you seem to forget: this is a comic in one page. That means the artist must be as clear and concise as possible if they want that people understand their message. This page is as much about Harris’ rant as it is about how David Willis perceived this rant and that’s why he put Lucy as the victim here, because we know she is a true fan. WE do, not this long-haired guy. WE know he and his flock of followers are wrong. The message would have been quite different if it was Malaya that was there cosplaying and being bullied. For similar reasons, it wouldn’t have the same impact if Willis used the actual quote, because it’s a frigging long text. And sorry, but “slut” summarizes it pretty accurately…
That reminds me oddly of the rationale I’ve seen used in Islamic theocracies for covering women – as in this complete infantalization of men, that “just can’t control themselves” (and apparently, cannot be expected to either)
A few points on the original rant…
1) Later in the comments that followed the post, Harris said, Sorry, while you Cos”Play” Im actually at work. Thats my office. Fuck you.
“My office” implies paying rent. Harris isn’t renting space at conventions; that space is paid for by the attendees, including the costumers for whom he harbors so much contempt. If he doesn’t want them around, he should stay in the safety and comfort of his studio and leave the convention to people who enjoy them. I hope convention organizers take that to heart, realize he said “fuck you” to their customers, and skip inviting him in 2013.
2) Several vendors complained in the comments about costumers taking so much attention that they can’t sell anything. If you’re having trouble peddling your comics and collectibles to huge crowds of geeks armed with disposable income, the costumers aren’t your problem. It’s either you or your merchandise. Or maybe both.
3) For argument’s sake, let’s assume some “fake geek girl” actually exists and shows up dressed as Supergirl, Batgirl, Black Widow, or whatever. The moment she stops to greet a little girl who’s thrilled to be meeting her favorite superheroine and poses for a photo the child will have forever, she’s done more for that convention and the future of comics than Harris could possibly do in a year’s worth of cons.
Damn. That was not supposed to be a reply to anything. I typed it at the bottom of the page, but I guess it wanted to be here.
“Harris isn’t renting space at conventions”
A booth at SDCC costs a couple grand.
If he’s renting space at a convention, he is renting it to be in that environment.
It would be like opening a restaurant in an airport, then wondering why your customers are all travellers and you can’t get any regulars.
His complaint is not only insulting and juvenile – it is inherently invalid.
I’m simply pointing out that (contrary to what the person above stated) Harris does actually pay “rent” to be at conventions for business purposes. And as someone who pays thousands, he does actually have a legitimate voice (not a legitimate argument in this instance) in asking for alterations to the “environment.”
Great. So he’s renting his booth. The cosplayers aren’t in his booth. They’re in the public spaces. Which he’s not renting.
If he were in his “office,” it wouldn’t be looked well on for him to lean out his window and scream obscenities at passersby on the ground below, either.
That’s for a 10′x10′ EXHIBITOR BOOTH, not a table for a professional comic book artist. If you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, it ill behooves you to attempt correcting someone who does after two minutes on Google.
Pff. Having paid the booth fees many times, I know exactly what I’m talking about.
Harris has had his own booth at SDCC before. I don’t want to shock you, but it’s not that uncommon for professionals to use exhibitor booths.
The only thing shocking me is how deep of a hole you’re willing to dig for yourself. When was the last time Tony Harris bought a 10′x10′ exhibitor booth at SDCC? I specifically said, “Harris isn’t renting space at conventions,” because he’s not. He’s appearing as a GUEST of conventions who offer him free space. Take a look at his appearance schedule, Mr. I Know Exactly What I’m Talking About. I did not say, nor did I even imply, that he has never paid for a spot at a con in his entire career. SDCC booth prices are irrelevant to my comment, and suggesting that Harris is paying that cost by mentioning it was beyond intellectually dishonest. He wasn’t renting “office” space at his six con appearances in 2011, and he sure as hell didn’t pay for an “office” at the one show he did in 2012.
If you want to keep up the pretense that you’re in the know, I suggest doing a bit more research before hitting that “post comment” button. By this point, it’s patently obvious that you’re more interested in convincing someone (ANYONE) that you’re correct in your weak defense of some misogynistic asshole’s tirade than in actually being correct.
A convention floor is definitely not “your office,” not in any sense of the word. It’s a ridiculous, arrogant notion. If I go to a convention in which the attendees aren’t the right kind for me, I GO TO A DIFFERENT CONVENTION NEXT TIME. And if you are absolutely offended by people dressing up like superheroes, maybe you should be in a different line of work. Complaining that other people express their fandom differently than you is not a solution for a rational person.
Hey, guess what, attendees paid to get in, too. If it’s your office, it’s also theirs. Welcome to society.
Nothing you are saying is contrary to what I have said. Harris does pay “rent”, contrary to what was stated. Everything else… Yeah. Sure. No disagreement.
I don’t know when specifically the last time was that Harris paid for a 10×10 booth space. I do know that he paid for space at at least one conventions that I was at in the last year. And so what? Pro’s pay for space far more often than you seem to think they do.
Pretense? I’ve been setting up at shows for over 20 years. I’m familiar with how the system works. You however, do not appear to be.
So yes, he was “renting” space. Does that allow him to dictate terms? Does it justify is rant? Of course not. Never said otherwise. In fact, I have stated the opposite.
Facts are facts. You don’t have to twist them or misrepresent them to make a point. There is enough about what Harris said that is worth attacking without making things up. He rents space every time he pays for a booth. His booth space fees do not give him license to dictate who is and is not a fan.
Stick to the facts.
These are the facts: Harris has only appeared at one U.S. convention in the last year, and he absolutely, 100%, without a doubt did not pay for the space he occupied, his travel, or his hotel room. I know the organizers of that show very well. I know who gets free space, whose flights and rooms are covered, and who’s at the show on their own dime. Telling me to stick to the facts while you fabricate your own version of reality to mask the actual fact that you just don’t know what you’re talking about is about the most amusing thing I’ve seen on the whole internets today. Right now, it’s running second to today’s Dumbing of Age, but the day is still early if you’re looking for a prize.
If you’re comfortable with lying to create an illusion of anonymous guys on the internet being knowledgeable and stuff, that’s on you, but I’d try it with someone else if you don’t want to be called on it.
Really? And what show was that? Because I know for a fact you’re mistaken.
Seeing as how there was only one, you’d already know if you hadn’t been telling porky pies.
No, seriously… Heroescon? Emerald City? Thought Bubble? That one in Spain?
Yeah, I know you added a last minute stipulation that only US shows and only in the last year count. Even if we discount those arbitrary criteria, you’re still wrong.
You’re knowledge here is limited. Sorry. Stupid, ignorant, stubborn, or just lying to try to prove a point… I don’t know which you are.
It doesn’t matter though. Because you’re wrong regardless of your motivation.
Even if the facts weren’t against you, it doesn’t changes the actual point. Yes, Harris does rent a space at shows. The end.
First he rents space because you cited the rates at SDCC, which Harris doesn’t do. Then he rents space because you were at another convention where he paid for space, only you don’t know which one it was. Now I added a last minute stipulation that only the last year counts, despite the fact that in reality (which I know you detest), it was you who said, “in the last year.” Tony Harris wasn’t at Emerald City Comicon in 2012; maybe you’re think of Tony Moore, but he didn’t pay rent, either. I guess in your fantasy bubble of pretense, YOU’RE WRONG BECAUSE I SAY YOU ARE EVEN IF I’VE DEMONSTRATED OVER AND OVER THAT I KNOW NOTHING THE END makes for rational discourse.
And congratulations on taking home the prize, because You’re knowledge here is limited definitely wins most amusing anything of the day on the internets. You are just precious.
Because Harris didn’t do the last SDCC, it doesn’t count? No. You added the “last year” criteria in regards to attending in general. Not me. Yes, I did list that criteria to being aware of a show he paid booth space for.
The fact that you are in denial that Harris was at ECCC is hysterical. You’re wrong. I was there, I saw him. The info is available online. Use Google.
You’re condescension and insults are very amusing. All the facts are at your fingertips, yet you choose to ignore them. I get that being obviously incorrect in your assertions pokes holes in your unearned superiority complex, but wrong you are. Facts are facts. Harris attended more than one US convention. One of them, was very obviously ECCC.
And I will say it once more: It doesn’t matter. Harris has a huge convention history. he has undoubtedly paid for space at may shows. That means he has “rented” space.
That is a fact. A real one. Not the kind you have been making up.
Go ahead. Try Google. It will change your life.
Again, you live in a fantasy bubble. Here’s the links to guests at their past shows: http://www.emeraldcitycomicon.com/past-shows/
As anyone with even one working eye can see, Harris was not a guest in 2012. You went searching for any convention you thought you could reference to back up the fib you told, and you mistakenly cited ECCC. Nothing you’ve posted on this page can be assumed to be true at this point. Any functionally literate human with the reading comprehension ability of a nine-year-old can see that I gave the number of cons Harris appeared at in 2011 and 2012, and you mentioned “the last year.” You are obviously delusional and in the midst of a meltdown. What’s worse, you’ve devolved into I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I for your responses.
And not that it matters, because you’re completely detached from the real world, but Harris hasn’t been to SDCC in years.
My post with links isn’t appearing, so I will clarify for you: Look up Image’s guest list. Look up: “Tracking Down Tony Harris”. You will see that Harris was left off the guest list, but that this error was publicly addressed.
From the onset I told you Harris was there. You chose to assume I was a liar. But the facts speak plainly for themselves. You were wrong about how many shows Harris attended. A Google search would have corrected this for you. But you stopped as soon as you saw what you believed would back-up your argument.
The difference between us is that I was at the show. I know what the actual facts are. You should do yourself a favor and stop foaming at the mouth over this.
You were wrong. Clearly. Now let it go.
Let’s put this one to rest while we are at it:
“Any functionally literate human with the reading comprehension ability of a nine-year-old can see that I gave the number of cons Harris appeared at in 2011 and 2012, and you mentioned “the last year.”
I mentioned that I knew Harris had paid for space in the last year. You proceeded to claim that he had only been at one show in the last year (in the US). Now you claim that you only said 2011 and 2012? Since you seem short on memory, here are your own words:
“Harris has only appeared at one U.S. convention in the last year”
You should stop casting stones regarding literacy.
That Harris was only doing one show in 2012 was an announcement he himself posted earlier in the year, but I’ll happily admit my error in taking that at face value. Unlike some, I’m perfectly comfortable copping to any mistake I make at any time.
HELLO THIS IS NOW THE CARTOONIST TALKING.
I AM EDITING THIS POST
AND HAVE REMOVED SEVERAL REALLY KIND OF POINTLESS AND PETTY PERSONAL ATTACKS
YOU GUYS DON’T DO THIS HERE OKAY???
Okay. Apologies David.
It was publicized that Harris was left out of the program. But guess what? He had a booth at Image, which each creator must pay for. that’s the way Image works.
I told you to use Google. You didn’t look deep enough. Facts are facts. i was at the show. I saw him. I have evidence to prove he was at the show. You insisted he had only been at one show this year in the US. Wrong. Not that the US alone matters. Not that the one year specification matters in the general sense (I only mentioned last year in regards to a show that I personally know he paid for space at. Nothing in my greater point is limited to the scope of the last year alone).
Do you get it yet? You were wrong. But rather than admit it, you continue to flail. To accuse. to scream and shout. But you’re still wrong. You made an assumption that Harris only appeared at one show that you tried to claim as fact.
Using your own logic, nothing you have said can be considered to be true. Any “functionally literate human with the reading comprehension ability of a nine-year-old” can see that you were mistaken.
Here’s another fact for you: We could have had a civil exchange. But you assumed I was lying from step one. Guess what? I wasn’t. But either you were or you were just to lazy to research your facts. Instead, you were to eager to be “right”.
And you weren’t.
Point three is absolutely beautiful. And surprisingly true! I mean, Disney knows this – this is why they have “cast members” in full dress (and why you’re not allowed to go in if you yourself are wearing a costume that’s a little too accurate – they want to make sure little boys and girls don’t get “confused” by people only “dressed like” their favorite character, as opposed to being cast specifically to play them).
I went as a female Green Lantern for Halloween this year, and stopped in to my apartment complex’s kids’ club. While most of the kids had either never heard of Green Lantern or didn’t know there were girl ones, you have NO IDEA how much fun it was, and how heartwarming it was, to see the little girls swarm around me and ask me “who I was”, and to be able to tell them I was “a Green Lantern”, and that you could be a Green Lantern if you were a girl, too, and how brave Green Lanterns were and how they got these awesome rings that could make anything you imagined. I even had a light-up ring as a prop part of my costume, and one of the kids asked me if it was “real”!
It was SO adorable, and one of the little girls hugged me around the legs twice and asked if I could come with her to trick or treat.
So fucking what? What’s it to him if they do?
Funny thing. Nobody seems to feel the need to investigate the degree of my fanhood when I dress up as somebody. Closest I’ve ever gotten was once dressing up as Sanji and being asked if the pen in my mouth was supposed to be a cigarette or a lollipop. It was the year when the 4kids dub started so I guess there were some new fans at the convention who had watched a notably different show from the rest of us.
That aside though I can dress up as Yoh Asakura in his revealing vest and short shorts only having read the first fifteen chapters of the comic and nobody bats an eyelash. I can dress up as Spider-Man having only watched the nineties animated series and nobody would even question it. Hell, I bet I could still get away with it having only watched the Raimi movies. I can half-ass a costume. Just turn a blue shirt inside out and draw the Superman symbol on it in red marker. Now I’m Superman and the vast majority of my knowledge of the fellow comes from the Justice League cartoon. Not a single person will criticize me for not being a real fan. I’m just another guy dressed a superman in a sea of them.
Funny thing is that I went on to learn a bit more about numerous of these characters. Still probably don’t qualify to be a “Real Fan” of Superman but I’ve read some of his comics. Still probably don’t measure up too well as a Spider-Fan but I love myself some Ultimate Spider-Man and think that Spider-man 2099 was pretty cool in The eXiles. That probably wouldn’t have happened if every time I showed a passing interest in these people without having an encyclopedic knowledge of them I had to deal with the offended sensibilities of others. Shaman King has actually just been on my “to read” list for about a decade now, but I still don’t think I was committing some grave offense by dressing up as a scantily-clad character I’d only seen in passing and thought was cool. If somebody had started throwing accusations around about that one I would feel justified in saying that they were jerks and what I was doing was totally fine.
Yet here we are with the women. Girl dresses up as Batgirl and she has to prove herself suddenly. Suddenly she’s looking for attention. Suddenly we see this ridiculous story laid out where somebody who hates nerds travels to a convention for things she doesn’t care about in order to seek some kind of sexual thrill from people she views as disgusting. It’s an entirely outlandish thing to accuse anybody of, and yet you see Tony Harris talking about it like it’s a common thing. An epidemic even.
You never hear about the Fratboy Jock who dresses up as Namor with only a brief search through google images as his guide before heading down to SDCC to get fawned on by nerd-girls while laughing at them behind their back. If you told the story of this person it would be as a singular borderline implausible and confusing individual. People would have questions. If you said that this guy and people like him were an epidemic plaguing our conventions I think most people would just call bullshit. Yet apparently this is a really commonplace thing for women to do.
I’ve been working the major conventions for over 20 years. There is a large degree of contempt from many industry people about cosplayers, male and female. Just because no one has said it to your face, doesn’t mean that people aren’t saying it.
I’ve been having a decades long debate about this with some people. I’ve always been a fan of cosplayers. I think it’s one of the coolest things to see at a show. But seriously, alot of people have little respect for cospayers. Tony Harris just:
A: Made the argument gender specific.
B: Said it online.
Really? I’m genuinely curious. Can you describe their reasons for being against cosplay or a general outline of the debate?
Frankly, they’re either snobs or they get frustrated with the clogging up of the aisles. The general opinion is that it distracts from the comics and makes it harder for people to find and purchase books.
Does this mean I’m part of the problem then? Because even though I rarely cosplay, I still don’t buy much of anything at the conventions. That stuff gets expensive real quick and I only go for the events that you can attend with paid admission and to just take in the atmosphere. I gotta have a spending limit, y’know?
Don’t you love our gravatars? It’s like it’s just one guy talking to himself.
Like I said, I think there’s a degree of snobbery. The majority of creators I have known over the years feel entitled to be at the show and get frustrated with crowds in their way when they have to rush from one location to another.
Frustration is at the heart of it. Conventions have become less and less about comics – and it’s frustrating to some comics professionals who have been doing what they do for years. When you see a cosplayer getting alot more attention than the creator of the character the person is cosplaying, it cuts some people a bit.
There’s a sensation of “these people aren’t buying comics”. Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. They bring people to the show, is my opinion.
I don’t actually spend much at shows myself. Especially ones like SDCC. And when I do, I’m usually buying toys. So I’m part of the problem too.
Regarding gravatars: I was thinking the same thing!
This might also be an “old guard vs. new guard” thing, aka Get Offa My Lawn You Stinkin’ Kids, perhaps?
Because, honestly, I’m actually working on some comic scripts myself. I’m active in reading comics, and love the genre. I would love to write both original stories, and for some of my favorites someday (such as Green Lantern Corps).
And me? I would feel honored if someone Cosplayed a character of mine – a good Cosplay shows skill and obsessive attention to detail, which is both cool and flattering, and even a bad Cosplay shows they basically wanted to advertise “I love this series/character!”. Even if the cosplayer got more attention than me at a given show, I don’t think I would mind, because it would show that either people were intrigued by the character, or they already loved the character and were happy to see someone into it.
Then again, this is coming from someone whose first fandoms were cosplay-friendly, such as anime and manga fandoms, and I’ve dressed up a few times as characters/concepts I really loved (went as a female Green Lantern this year’s Halloween, have gone to cons as Yomiko Readman and Misato Katsuragi). So I do know a little of the perspective of a Cosplayer/cosplay fan, too. I also remember being at FX show and getting interested in characters like Black Cat, who I’d never previously heard of, because of really cool Cosplays.
So I dunno, maybe I’m not a representative sample. But I do think cosplay has gotten more popular and with younger crowds in recent years, and wonder if that’s part of it.
Likewise, I know of a lot of authors, mostly older authors, who are weirded out at the idea of fanfic – they think of it as a creepy usurping of their characters, or they think it’s “uncreative”; whereas I grew up in online fandom where fanfic was common and think of it as mostly either harmless fantasy, or in the best of cases, a real demonstration of both creative hard work and love and devotion to the series.
I wonder really – are we going to get a generation of writers who are okay with fanfic and don’t care about cosplay gradually replacing the old guard? Or is there always going to be that element that finds creative efforts of fans to be “creepy and distracting”?
(And I mean normal fan efforts. Not porn stuff, because that doesn’t count. Rule 34 and all.)
It never ever ever pays to alienate your customer base for any reason. “Industry” folks can hold all the quiet contempt they want, but if they don’t want to become a toxic property they’d probably best keep it to themselves.
I want to meet the jock who knows nothing about comics and dresses up as Narmor to troll cons for geek girls. He seems like a kickin dude.
He must have so many great stories. I like to think he does this at all the conventions. Whether it’s a gathering of hobbyists, businessmen or scientists he’s there in some sexified get-up with no idea what he’s talking about. At the Renaissance Fairs he goes as a barbarian with just a loin cloth and a single chain spaulder.
It’s all quite time consuming. He actually has to swindle a certain number of women at each con just to cover his traveling expenses.
I am literally laughing out loud over here so hard. You are the best.
So he’s a RENAISSANCE Casanova?
I… I actually kind of want this to be a story that actually exists. This could be a daily webcomic in its own right:
Will he get found out by that hottie heart surgeon with the slipup between “veins” and “arteries”? Will the Green Lantern fangirl who looks so hot in that Star Sapphire costume figure out he’s never actually read Blackest Night? Will the Faire Maiden figure out he’s cheating on her with six other girls at three different events and that, in fact, he doesn’t actually joust in his spare time? Tune in next page to… “The Adventures of Geek Casanova!”
Pssst! I have a secret… those cosplayers who only dress up for attention? They don’t actually exist. Or at least, they are VERY rare.
Nobody waste his or her time making a costume if they don’t give a fuck about who the costume is, and they definitely don’t do it becuase they need the attention of some nerdy strangers they don’t know and don’t respect
I would take the stance that EVERYONE in a costume wants attention. I sure did. But you know what? I’m ALSO a genuine geek. I’m a massive sci-fi/anime/comic/gamer nerd. The on does not invalidate the other, and it is just as true of many of the men in costumes as the women.
Tony Harris said some very sexist, stupid things. He may be redeemable (I don’t know, nor do I care to)…but those comments are not. Defending them is pointless.
Oh yes, what a horrible plague those women (I was going to say people, but there’s no way Tony Harris and his ilk could consider a MAN doing something like that) are. Also, these goddamn unicorns that keep digging up my garden and harassing my virgin family members.
Funny…wasn’t that what Malaya assumed Lucy was doing back when she first noticed all the other Shortpacked nerds enjoying her company? Faking being a geek for the attention.
We all know what Harris said. The problem with that line of thinking is that:
A) For all you know, that woman really freaking likes Power Girl. (I mean, who doesn’t like Power Girl?)
B) Cons are for having fun. There is no knowledge requirement you need to fill out to justify wearing a cool costume. Are you having fun? Good, enjoy the con.
He also made it clear that he assumes that a majority of women who cosplay do not fit into the category of “true nerd.” For all we know, Lucy doesn’t fit his litmus test (remember, she did throw away the new 52 after the first issue… clearly she doesn’t know enough about comics!)
See, I forgot about that. Hell, she hasn’t even been reading comics for that long nor is she all that into them in general. Picked up her first DC comic when they were advertising their New 52 because she was feeling nostalgic about the heroines of her youth. Was disappointed. Since then she checked out some of their other renditions and found Starfire in particular to be universally lacking. She at some point approached comic readers about the subject and apparently took a lot of flack for thinking her “Dumb cartoon knock-off” was worthwhile.
You could totally fit her into the narrative Tony Harris puts forth. Here’s an “ordinary” girl who has recently hit college age. She’s skinny but not drop-dead sexy. Con-Hot as Tony put it. Not by Mack’s estimation of course, but surely if you found a group of people with little enough interaction with women they’d agree that she is. She enjoys dressing up as characters she “knows nothing about” (Of course that has to be an attention thing). She’s put herself in a toy store where she can be surrounded by male nerds who she must surely secretly hate, after all there’s no way she’s seeking out Mack’s company once they’re both out of the toy store. That’s gotta be because of her disgust for Mack’s interests. No other explanation. She’s a liar, here to fool virgins into thinking she wants to spend time with them with her insidiously crafted Batgirl costume. Preying on their vulnerability, insecurity, and ignorance.
She’s not comics. She knows nothing about comics. She’s just what all the comic fans flock to at the toy store. The real reason all that character she’s dressing up as exists is comics and writers like Tony Harris who made these characters up.
Those poor defenseless men. Good thing they have a savvy and courageous guy like Mack to step forward and protect them by saying what needs to be said. Think of how many virgins could have been swindled, bamboozled and hoodwinked were Mack not around to call the devious Lucy out on this and send her packing.
So how would one tell the difference at a con between a “real girl nerd” and a “fake girl nerd who is only there to get attention”?
I really have no idea. I’ve been examining myself as a girl nerd and I suspect that I wouldn’t pass the litmus test, either.
I mean I play video games every day, but I mostly play Bioware games (they focus on character which I love, and they always let me play as a girl). There are many games coming out that many gamers are salivating at, that I have no interest in. Plus I don’t own an xbox and I’ve never played even one Halo game! Too many strikes there!
I like comics, but I don’t follow any regularly except web comics. I used to read the collected editions of Ultimate Spiderman but that was and still is the only Spiderman comic I ever read. I might possibly have redeemed myself by having read some of the classics such as Watchman and The Dark Knight, but currently the only regular paper comics I read are manga which is probably a blow against me.
I like building computers and work in the tech industry, BUT I don’t spend a lot of time reading up on specs and I’ve forgotten most of the DOS commands I used for troubleshooting, back when I was frontline tech support. I’m still good with general tech support, but the intricate, specific, more technical stuff I’d be lost at.
It all boils down to: You see a girl at a con dressed as Princess Leia in her famous gold bikini getup. You go to talk to her about Leia in the EU, thinking surely she MUST be interested in that, but it turns out she’s bored. WHAT? She only likes Leia from the films, and has never read any of the EU? FAKE! This describes my SW fandom, by the way. Except that I love the KOTOR games, including TOR to which I have a current subscription. If I had the bod for the princess Leia outfit, you better believe I’d be wearing it to conventions, I don’t care how many billions of other women are doing it. And if you talked to me about the EU I either wouldn’t give a shit or I’d openly mock the EU.
Maybe dudes like Tony Harris and the horde that is patting him on the back right now should just understand that everyone has different levels of nerddom, and NO ONE is required to submit their papers to prove anything to anyone about how “true” they are.
By Tony’s standards, if they agree with him on everything or not.
If you allow me the interruption: Where’s that gravatar you have there coming from? Looks nice.
And to say something to the topic at hand: I’ve been to comic conventions, but mostly go J-culture conventions, if you want to call them that way. One of them, the Connichi in Kassels, has an estimated girl to guy ratio of 6 to 4. And boy is there a load of cosplayers! And some of them, while it’s not their reason for cosplaying in general, certainly have showing off in mind as well when choosing their character. (Mind you: As well. I’ve yet to meet a cosplayer going as a character they didn’t either find cool for their own right or simply a funny idea to represent (as the Pedobear family on this years JAN for example).) And if they’ve got the body to do so: Why the heck not? You won’t hear me complaining about free fanservice.
That is to say, I have heard people complaining about such girls. Interestingly enough it was outsiders calling us men out for “forcing the poor girls to dress like sex-objects”. Oh dear. You ever talked to one of these girls? I have! And there’s no way that I could force them to wear anything they don’t want to. That’s a very healthy amount of self-respect in them.
So, no. They’re not dressing like that because they need that attention and are preying on us poor men. They do because they have fun doing it. Do they like the attention they get? Certainly! But that’s not the same by a long mile. And let’s be honest: Everyone of us likes to show off when he’s good at something. As long as it’s done in moderation (and just dressing like that and posing when asked for a photo is definitely still in moderation), all it does is creating some nice memories for all of us. And maybe some envy in the “I wish I could sew costumes like that!”- and/or “Dang, nice body.”-departments. But that can be positively rerouted into motivation.
Sorry, I guess I’m rambling rather incoherently here. Club board meeting halfway shorted out my brain and what this Harris guy said (and I’ll admit I actually had to wiki him to know who he was) didn’t exactly help either.
One last thing: Another reason some girls go for the “slutty” outfits? Because less cloth means they’re easier to produce, at least with some of them. Let’s be honest: A good looking Gurren Lagann Yoko costum is easier and faster done than a Metroid Samus in full armour. And yes, that’s a reason I actually got from female cosplayers I talked with, not thought up myself. Not as the only reason for their choice, but in the sense of “…, plus I didn’t have much time and this was simpler than my other choices.”
Are you sure Lucy isn’t the type of woman he’s talking about?
Lucy’s not a comics fan. She knows very little about comics. She’s a fan of the animated versions of the characters.
Yeah! Just like all those posers who gush over the movie ‘The Godfather’,
when All True Fans have the novel memorized.
Lucy is simply leaving to go grab her Amazi-girl handed down Weapon.
The person in question who was oh so brave to call someone a slut because she was cosplaying and didn’t think she was a “real” geek is Tony Harris.
Big man in the comics industry and a complete douchebag apparantly.
He recently made a huge facebook rant about “fake” nerd girls who cosplay under the idea that many (or even most) girls who dress in revealing outfits as cosplay only do it for nerd attention.
There are a few who probably do so, but the fact is that the vast VAAAAST majority who put on a costume do it because they love the character. Cosplaying is hard and time consuming, and although it will get you attention (of all sorts) to actually spend the time and energy making costumes shows a great deal of dedication to both the craft AND the character.
And even assuming the person just googled the image and liked it and wanted to use it as a costume, SO THE HELL WHAT? If anything, they aren’t “posers” they are potential people who may grow to actually like the thing they are cosplaying as. If they dress as supergirl, maybe they might actually enjoy supergirl comics. If they dress as catwoman, maybe they will enjoy Catwoman or Batman comics. The aesthetic is part of the draw!
And even assuming worse than that, they just like dressing up. Again, so what? It takes a lot of time and dedication and some may just enjoy the fine art of costume making. There is nothing to be angry about there.
Sure maybe a few might just want to “slut it up” (A term I despise), but there are easier routes most of the time so I have a hard time believing they would choose the comic book crowd since it requires a lot more work and ends in a LOT of backlash (like Mr. Harris.)
For a full text, see here:
GOD I hate how sometimes geek culture, a culture that is traditionally inclusive as a selling point, has become so reclusive and alienating to people, particularly to women!
WOMEN EXIST! THEY ARE OVER HALF THE POPULATION! STOP BEING SURPRISED WHEN SOME SHARE A SIMILAR INTEREST!
And stop slut-shaming and condescending those who don’t share your “elite” interests.
Most importantly: Stop. Lumping. All. Women. Together. Women are individuals not a collection of Borg drones. It works wonders when you stop thinking of them as a group.
Sorry about the rant but…When I start typing I just can’t stop sometimes.
Yeeessss. I feeed on the rage!
On a more serious note, I understand the response (as assholey as it is). I think its because that the mainstream has for a long time maligned things like videogames and comics and their fandoms, making them feel persecuted. Or at least people have seen the image or accepted the narrative of that persecution.
but as ‘nerdity’ has become more mainstream, that narrative no longer fits the modern experience. Every one enjoys Batman, whether comics, cartoons or Nolan films. That means that people like this Tony Harris blaggard are having a shifting vision in front of them. Their hobby is no longer pressured so they can’t go into their old identity as a gamer, or comic lover which provides a protection from that pressure.
You can see it with a lot of gamers today (I don’t know anything about comic fandom besides what I pick up on tvtropes), where they lash out against people they feel are diluting their medium or some how damaging the fandom.
I think I’m done talking out of my ass now. Good times.
“He recently made a huge facebook rant about “fake” nerd girls who cosplay under the idea that many (or even most) girls who dress in revealing outfits as cosplay only do it for nerd attention.”
Attractive women want Nerd Attention.
And this is a BAD THING?
That was my first reaction to this and my current reaction.
I’m sooooo concerned that some of them are not ‘geeks’ themselves. (Wouldn’t liking geeks make them a little geeky to begin with? It at least makes them eccentric.)
Elitist tripe, made only to gather his own attention.
The reason it’s seen as a bad thing (and while it’s not common by any stretch of the imagination, I have seen this phenomenon once or twice at D&D groups and at various times in cons or game stores) is that this particular type of girl wants ATTENTION, but does not want to reciprocate. It’s the kind of person that uses attractiveness to seduce men into doing things for them, making implicit promises that they will never fulfill.
“particular type of girl wants ATTENTION, but does not want to reciprocate”
She… doesn’t want to pay attention to you back? Help me out here, what is it that you this girl owes someone?
You know, I’ll buck the trend here. As a girl, I actually have worn a costume to at least partially attract male attention. Why? Because I’m a bit shy, I like The Middleman and I would like to meet dudes as they are the gender I find sexually attractive and would like to date and someday marry one, perhaps (Middleman liking is a plus). I’ve also met guys who wear girl-attracting costumes for the same reason. Are people attending cons not allowed to socialize with each other and make connections anymore? How does a third party tell the difference between “awww, blossoming love!” and “MONSTER! SHE’S USING YOU!”. I don’t really think he can.
FYI – I’ve also worn a little black dress at bars. Please stone me now.
You know, it occurs to me that if he has a problem with women dressing in revealing costumes at cons, then perhaps he, as an industry insider, should work towards making female character’s costumes less skimpy. Because there’s the sexed-up Hallowe’en girl’s version of typically full-coverage male costumes, and there’s making and wearing a costume that is canon-accurate. So perhaps the problem is less with these attention-seeking, nerd-hating sluts, and more with the fodder he and others working with him have provided.
But that’s not gonna happen because guys like seeing women running around half-naked in comics, and the comics are made to appeal to men, because women don’t ever read or like comics, which means that any woman dressing up at a con in a skimpy costume is just doing it because she’s an attention-seeking Hor, because there’s no way she could ever possibly be a TruFan, because she’s a girl and only boys read comics because comics are for boys.
Oh, man. *Facepalm*
Now I kind of want to gather a bunch of female friends and do burka-versions of superhero costumes. “Look! I’m Supergirl! You can tell because my burka is blue and has the Superman symbol on the front! Ooh, look, there’s Batgirl and Spider-girl!”
“No, it’s okay; this is how Tony Harris says we’re supposed to do it.”
Oh my stars, I would totally love to see burka versions of superheroes. That would be quite different to see and rather sweet.
…I almost want to do this now.
I don’t know though. I’d be tempted to be a Green Lantern, but the latest MALE Green Lantern is Muslim, so… that might actually be a touchy subject? I have no idea.
Then again, certainly, a female Muslim Green Lantern would probably at least wear a headscarf, because the uniform is modified BY the individual Lanterns, to suit their own tastes and culture.
If only there was a fave feature or like button here. This is an awesome idea!
My mental image of burka-Supergirl looks like Kara messed up a landing and her cape flipped over her head.
You’d need a Granny Goodness. Young ladies aren’t supposed to go about unchaperoned, dontcha know.
Myself, I’m amused that a man named Tony Harris is acting like an asshole.
Please tell me this means I’m not the only one who noticed that this particular king of assholes has the same name as Xander’s asshole dad in Buffy. (Or is there yet another asshole of the name that I’m temporarily forgetting about?)
I’m not sure what Joshlamont meant, but you definitely weren’t the only one. Given that I have no idea who Tony Harris is, I’ve been reading the comments like a Buffy AU fic of the best kind. It’s been wonderful. (I hope Willow kicks his butt.)
Aren’t those just the best?
(Def. thinking Xander’s dad)
Omigod I forgot about that character! Ha! That is pretty funny.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:
Some men really seem to overestimate their draw power.
Funny how nerd culture has gone from ‘Women are jerks and don’t appreciate us which is why none of us can get dates’ to ‘Women must be dying for our attention which is the only reason they do nerdy things’. Neither of which is true.
No kidding, these are probably the same morons who think gay guys will automatically want to jump them too.
SMBC Theatre actually did a satire on a related topic a couple weeks ago, the sad part was the comments of people who didn’t seem to grasp it and were agreeing with the point it wasn’t making.
Heh. A gay friend of ours and another, it ended up, homophobic friend, met at our house for the first time. And the homophobe, realizing that our other friend was gay, says that he’s fine with gays but if he makes a pass at him, he will punch him in the face (I assume everyone can sort the pronouns out).
And the gay friend smiles and says, “Don’t worry. Contrary to stereotyping, gay men aren’t attracted to assholes.” XD
They got along surprisingly well after that.
What I love is that that incoherent rant managed to accuse women of both faults at the same time.
We really are a crafty and nefarious species.
(And dudebros are a superstitious, cowardly lot.)
a SUP er STIT ious cowardly LOTTT!
They plan and plot, but they always get caaaaaught!
Their many schemes will come to naught!
Oof. Not gonna lie, that last panel…that really stung. Like, I mean, a couple of seconds of gulping, but not quite near tears.
I made the mistake of going to Harris’s facebook page after the whole mess, and seeing all the people backpatting him and giving the whole “We’ll stick by you no matter what, man!” spiel…that was almost worse than him saying all that crap to begin with. (My favorite were the comments of the, “I don’t know what this is all about, Tony, but my money’s on you being right!” variety.) I mean, yeah, most women get used to the fact that some jerkhole, even one involved in their favorite subculture, is going to say something sexist and insulting. But watching people cheer them on is the bit that’s confusing. Like…you can understand one random moment of insanity from one person, spewing out some kind of thoughtless bile. But it’s genuinely shocking to see other people read that same bile and nod their heads going, “This guy…this guy really gets it.”
The stuff they were saying was pretty damn awful. I saw some screencap samples of some of the comments and it was like picking up a rock and underneath finding a bunch of estrogenphobic nerdmen whining at me that boobs=evil slut.
Trust me, that’s scary. I prefer it when it’s centipedes.
Did you see the transphobic comments too? Turns out not even having a penis instead of the dread man-destroying vagina makes a lady cosplayer safe from being derided by these jackholes.
Hrm. The penis comment was funnier in my head. I’m trans (heading in the other direction of the lady cosplayers they were mocking in question) but I still haven’t quite gotten the hang of making jokes about it. I apologize!
Seemed funny to me. But I’m a fan of anything that refers to “the man-destroying vagina.” Time for a Sarlaac Pit gif!
Well, I’d say that’s probably due to it being the internet. You attract people who agree with you, and are attracted to people you agree with.
Odds are that out of millions, there’ll be a bunch of people who agree with your opinion, even if they’re scattered across the globe.
Add in moderation, say if a guy moderates the comments he gets, and there’s the possibility of creating an illusion that a lot of people agree with you.
tl;dr: I could probably find, like, at least 20 people who’d agree with me if I said Jules Verne’s From Earth to the Moon was autobiographical.
I think we both need that.
(Preface: Sorry if double-post. My computer’s being a derp.)
Yeah, I love the fact that because I’m “well endowed” I must be faking it. Because just because some people find me conventionally attractive, all the suffering I experienced in school because I preferred to spend my recesses reading and couldn’t understand the politics of popularity is suddenly negated. Because even now, when I eschew makeup and am the awkward girl in class who knows that every bit of laughter is directed at me, if I look good for an instant at a con, I should feel bad about myself.
Sure, attention is nice. Everyone who cosplays wants some amount of attention. But I do not want to think about anyone’s fapping habits, or believe that I inspired them. I do not want people hanging on my whim. And this is the same crap I hear about when people say I must have it easy because I’m blonde. That people will buy me drinks and treat me well. I don’t drink, and I am statistically likely to be sexually assaulted in my life.
Okay, that turned into a rant. I’m sorry. You guys already know all of this. It just makes me very upset when the internet, the home of the most wonderful people I know, turns up crap like this.
(Also, thanks Willis, for always sticking up for this. I’m sorry in advance if this brings out the trolls.)
You are not alone.
I too am a “well-endowed” girl who is genuinely geeky and was genuinely a loser from about 3rd through 12th grade. And every single time I see people making snide comments about nerd girls who happen to be cute “clearly faking it” or “oh gee, she must have had suuuuuch a hard time in school” I want to PUNCH someone. Example: Felicia Day. I have seen people express “skepticism” that someone cute like Felicia Day could not only be a genuine geek, but also ever have had the kind of hardships “normal” geek girls had. Clearly she’s just trading on her geek cred because she’s in a lot of scifi. Except…
Never mind the fact that she was a Potential Slayer, damnit. Never mind that she gets to CHOOSE her roles, that she she’s actively made -written, produced, promoted – a whole, long-running ongoing webseries about geeks in a WoW-type Guild, or that her cuteness is in fact not “standard” cookie-cutter Barbie perfect, and that even if it were, that does jack shit to protect you from the spite of people who sense weakness. She’s an attractive redhead, so clearly she has never had ANY hardships in her life, and can’t possibly ACTUALLY like say, the thing that she has WRITTEN AND PRODUCED A SERIES ABOUT, of her own volition, on her own time and money.
And don’t get me started on this idea that just because it’s “easy” for cute geek girls to get a date with geek guys, that we should hook up with any given geek at all, as opposed to, you know, someone we as a human being have an actual attraction to. The moment you go out in public with big boobs, you apparently OWE fellow geeks your attention. Or you know, surely, because you’re attractive, you must be seeking a relationship, and surely you will want it with them.
Luckily I have yet to run into very few guys who were like that and then pushy about it IRL. But you run into a shocking amount of them willing to spew that kind of childish, sexist entitlement online when they don’t have to deal with an actual, real live woman telling them they’re acting kinda creepy.
Newsflash, entitled guys: women are people! Human beings with their own agency and independent thoughts, feelings and wants. Sometimes they like to dress up in fun costumes, sometimes they read comics. You know, like guys do. That does not mean you are entitled to touch their boobs or date them, any more than you are entitled to a bridge in Brooklyn.
The sickest aspect of the fake-geek-girl obsession is the idea that hot women are cosplaying solely to get one over on the poor geeks. There are full grown adults who honestly believe that the only reason a good-looking woman would ever dress up like a super-hero (at a giant party where hundreds of people dress up like superheroes) is so she can trick geeks into… I dunno, thinking they have a shot? Like simply being in the presence of these poor nerds and not dispensing blowjobs is victimizing them.
I’ve seen a few say flat out that they know these hot girls are laughing at them. I just… I don’t even know how I can respond. What do you can it when pity and disgust combine?
Just thinking about what it’s like inside these guys’ heads makes me sick.
I just wish they weren’t the target audience of most media. It’s giving me a window into their psyche I do not want.
That is definately the most confusing aspect of it, anyway. Nerds grubbin all over me is basically the worst part of being geeky in public.
I will admit that the inverse happened to me once though. I was reading a comic on the bus and some guy came up all excited to talk to me about Batman and how much he loooves Batman and how he got a Batman tattoo… except he had no idea that there was more than one Robin? Like he asked if I liked Robin and I asked him which one and he got this look like I started speaking in German or something. And his Batman tattoo was, like, literally the word “BATMAN” written across his stomach. The whole time he was talking to me I was, like ‘wtf is this guy’s deal? Is he for real? Is he hitting on me?’ But he got of the bus without asking for my number so I guess he just really wanted to talk about Batman.
See, if he’d been a woman, then not knowing about multiple Robins would have surely meant he is not a true fan.
Batman tattoo, man, that’s ballsier than I could do
I’m an ass but damn, that bearded guy is…. he is King Asshole, ruler of the Asshole Kingdom under the succession of the Asshole Dynasty.
Apparently, now that Mike’s a family man, someone else had to take on the title of The Embodiment of Assholery.
I think it has more to do with mike being in… Damn it, where did Mike and Amber move to? Arizona or something?
…I think I failed the geek test.
What is this I don’t even?
Thank goodness for the comments section, or else I’d be hopelessly lost here.
Yeah, honestly this comic is not one of Willis’s best. You need insider knowledge of that Tony guy, & it isn’t funny, it’s just cruelty to Lucy.
I mean, there isn’t even an immediate sense of comeuppance for Tony, or even making a statement against him. Those kind of comics merit immediate payback. Sure, that doesn’t happen in the real world, but it should have here.
And if Willis couldn’t do better than this, because he’s distracted by T-day, maybe he should have considered skipping today, instead of submitting something like this.
Or maybe Willis should’ve done some irrelevant filler.
I’m with you two; I didn’t understand the context until I read the comments.
I don’t know. That lack of comeuppance on ‘Mack Barrass’/Tony Harris makes it all the more haunting, and that shows us clearly what it is like being on the receiving end of this bull.
I agree, Dr. Z. It’s pretty clear that this is not meant to be “funny,” but a sad statement on the reality of certain aspects of nerd culture. Him getting his comeuppance would not be appropriate here.
I read Shortpacked for the comedy, & usually enjoy the mixed in social commentary. This isn’t what I consider a savvy attempt to point out what’s wrong with society.
Its just putting stark negative language out there & leaving it for the reader to form conclusions. Not the sort of comic I want to see repeated.
The comeuppance is this comic’s existence.
Am I the only one who wants someone to kick this man’s ass in-comic?
don’t worry, five seconds after the last panel, ninja mike dropped from the ceiling and “removed” the “annoyance” from the store.
Ninja Mike- that’s a weird combo
So, new Shortpacked character Mack Barrass = Tony Harris?
Thank you, to those posters who spent time to explain the connection to the “Fake Geek Girls” BS and the comic. I was a little lost there.
Same here, both on confusion and on thanks to the posters.
Without them, I would have had no idea why this random bigot would have been more “noteworthy” than any of the others that infest the internet.
When I was saw a glimpse of this comic a few hours ago [before the server shat itself again] I was wondering why Modern-Day Picture-Book Jesus was being such a prick to Lucy.
This is all leading up to a three way showdown between Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus, and Modern-Day Picture-Book Jesus.
oh HELL yes! With a guest cameo from Sinfest Steampunk Jesus? I would read the shit outta that.
I was perturbed that this comic ended with Lucy simply walking away, as it didn’t seem to sync very much with what I know of her character. Then I just imagined that she went around a corner and upended a giant vat of custard that Galasso suspends from the ceiling for some nefarious purpose.
What you just imagined should become canon.
I disagree. I think she should have thrown batarangs (Lucyrangs?) at them.
Either that or got the popper. Amber passed it onto her for a reason, after all.
With AmaziGirl and Mike gone who will pimp slap Fools who think they can bully the employees now?
Ninja Rick.. Haven’t seen him in a while (working differnt shift from current main cast?).
True, but Amber passed Amazi-Girl’s corn popper on to Lucy before she left. So there may be a sequel tomorrow/Friday? One hopes?
I hadn’t heard of this at all before (not living in mainland U.S.A I expect this to have taken place then) but it sounds like a total asshole decided to take out his frustration on some innocent cosplayer. Which is a dick move in my opinion. If he gets turned down, and then decides to try and ridicule guests into not coming, I think he’d deserve the treatment a troll should get.
Being thrown out, banned from the premises, and set on fire if he ever tries to return. Of course, given he apparently has some measure of fame, it may take a lot to get him banned (if its possible at all) but people being made aware of how much of an asshole he is should hopefully help keep him too reminded that people know that he’s an ass and at least I wouldn’t want to meet with him. If he does good work, I’d appreciate that, but him as a person?
Figure it would be wisest to just keep walking but I’d prefer to tell him he’s not the voice of the masses, and he’s no prophet, a false messiah at best, for those other frustrated voices he seems to try to speak for.
For all that, he’s a king of dicks, and the reward for that should be a cannon-kick to the junk.
Sorry, ranting because of anger how stupid the fellow can be.
Great comic Willis, just angry at the people that can be stupid enough to go along with this kind of slut-shaming.
Well it’s not quite that bad and yet much worse, because he didn’t call out a single cosplayer.
He basically stated that all female cosplayers are doing it to victimize poor, virginal men (all except a very marginal exception group).
So every time any woman wore a revelaing outfit to a con? That’s right, she was just pretending to like that character so the men would shower her in attention. No way she’s really in to that or anything. Obviously people spend time making their own costumes because they’re completely disinterested in the character who made the costume famous!
Tony Harris == giant stinky butt.
“How dare a woman should dress up in (manner) unless they’re willing to put out for ME. Bitches and teases, every one.”
He should be banned from conventions for saying something stupid on his personal Facebook page?
No, he should be banned from conventions because he just viciously attacked a large number of any convention’s paying customers.
Guess what, if I go to Wal-mart and start screaming that Wal-mart customers are terrible evil predators and that they should get the fuck out, it’s me who will be asked to leave, not them. Why on earth should conventions be any different?
If I’m running a convention, I’m not giving a table to a guy who has stated his desire to drive my paying customers away. Especially when his only reason for doing this boils down to misogyny.
If Harris gets his way, conventions are more sparsely attended. Maybe that’s wonderful for the man-children who throw crying fits when exposed to females, but not so good for the people who have to pay the bills.
You just stated the difference yourself. Harris posted on his personal page – other people took that rant and reposted it. He didn’t go posting this on convention forums. He didn’t go screaming into a business.
I’m sorry, but punishing an individual for free expression is a horrendous concept. People should be free to say what they like without punitive measures – even if what they say is stupid.
Just because one can say something does not mean one should say it.
Free speech only protects you from legal ramifications due to things you have said or written. There are still other consequences for all of the stupid things people say and Mr. Harris is no different. The fact that he posted it on his personal page only saves his professional organizations from having to cover themselves for that rant. He is still accountable for his own words.
It’s the same as people being fired from jobs for posting racist/sexist/other-ist drivel on their Facebook pages or Twitters. There are no legal ramifications for such actions, but their places of employ are still well within their rights to fire people for such actions. In fact, many jobs have you sign an agreement to that effect when you’re hired.
Please note, I am not saying Mr. Harris does not have the right to say what he thinks. He very much does, however much we might dislike it. I am only saying that there are other consequences rather than legal that can, and could possibly be, exercised against him that may teach him to think before he opens his mouth.
The concept of Free Speech should extend beyond the legal protection. Tony Harris is largely self-employed. Literally banning him from a public place where he does business just because you don’t like what he said?
What is the point of being able to say what you think if you will be driven out of business for it? How does that encourage free speech?
What Harris said was stupid. But if people had ignored his rant it would have languished on his personal Facebook page reaching (relatively) no one. Even still, no one is being prohibited from their cosplay, as much as Harris might like otherwise.
Harris: “I don’t think these certain people should be allowed at conventions!”
Reaction: “How dare Harris suggest who should or should not be allowed at conventions! Ban Harris from conventions!”
Hang on. Did you… yes, yes you did. I don’t think you realize what you just said there.
“The concept of Free Speech should extend beyond the legal protection.”
You realize you just basically said that people should be able to be assholes to everyone, with no social consequences? That’s the absolute only way to “extend” Free Speech beyond “legal protection”.
I’m sorry, but no. That’s stupid. That actually interferes with OTHER people’s rights to say “no, you’re scaring our customers away” or “no, I don’t want to be around you because you’re saying creepy things”.
Don’t get me wrong, I will fight to my dying breath to support this asshole’s right to free expression…. LEGALLY.
But to say “no, a private business like a convention has no right to say, hey, you just scared off a large portion of our customer base, so we’re not going to ask you back”?
I’m sorry, that interferes with OTHERS’ rights. And that is the line we do not cross.
There’s idealism and then there’s ridiculous. You’re coming down on the side of ridiculous, dude.
The people that run the convention are free to make whatever decision they want in regards to Harris setting up a booth. This is not the same with banning Harris from a convention.
Let’s be clear: Harris did not make these statements at a show. He hjas not used a show to distribute these philosophies. He made his statements on his personal Facebook page that you would only see if you have a Facebook account and you follow him.
There are social consequences. You can choose not to shop at his booth. You can do your part to make his visit to the convention pointless by ignoring him.
Free speech HAS to be only legal repercussions. Otherwise you could not judge people for the things they say at all. And that’s just mind-numbingly stupid. If you say something in public people will respond to it. Moreover, they SHOULD respond to it. Otherwise, speech has no meaning. They may not respond the way you’d like, but that’s the risk you take. In this case, the way he’d like would be a lot of back-patting and compliments, but what he gets is calls for his removal from the conventions he was criticizing.
You may think it’s an over-reaction, but people that don’t like it are free to advocate blacklisting you, within the bounds of the law, that’s free speech. Free-speech doesn’t mean, “I can insult anyone I want and they can’t do get offended and stop doing business with me.” It means “They can’t lock me up or sue me, unless they can prove it’s slander or treason or the like.” And that’s how it should be, because anything else would involve re-organizing the human brain itself and de-value the very speech you are claiming to protect, since the only way to achieve what you claim to want would be to ignore everything everyone ever said.
Whose law? This is a multinational internet, after all. And how was teh philosophy of free speech born, if it is only defined by law? Law comes second. The idea that free speech is only about legal repercussions is asinine.
Beyond that, you’re repeating things I have rebutted numerous times. You don’t like what the guy said, don’t give him your business. Removing him from the equation altogether because you don’t like what he said? What about the people who did? What about the people who don’t care? What about the people who don;t like what he said but want to buy his work anyway?
Who are you to make the decision for everyone else?
Vote with your wallet. Great. But life isn’t an internet forum and banning someone from a public space for holding opinions you dislike on their personal webpage is bullshit.
What’s truly “asinine” are the notions that 1) there should be no social or financial consequences for what people say and 2) that a comic book convention is “public space.” Conventions are PRIVATE events, organized by PRIVATE individuals and organizations, and held in PRIVATELY operated (leased) areas. They are open to the public only to the extent that the PRIVATE individuals who run the conventions welcome those members of the public.
You have yet to present a legitimate, coherent argument for any position you’ve taken. An average teenager could recognize the sheer folly in a statement like, “It’s still a public space, just privately owned and operated.” It’s preposterous that anyone would even type that, never mind publish it on the interwebs.
I already stated there are clear social and financial consequences. There are multiple people here who will not purchase Harris’ work now. The need to officially ban him from events for having opinions is both unnecessary and works against the principal of free speech.
Once again, conventions are not “private events”. They’re public space, just privately owned and operated. That’s the way the law works.
You not understanding this does not change it.
Dude, you’ve already been caught either lying or just making stuff up. Do us both a favor and don’t compound your embarrassment.
Of course conventions are private events. Read the terms and conditions the next time you sign a contract for space or purchase admission if you want to know how the law actually works outside FantasyLand. It’s no different than any other business where “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” applies, except that you have to actually pay admission and agree to a set of rules before entering, making it even less “public space” than a privately owned retail store. There are parks in NYC that fit the definition of privately owned public space; a comic convention doesn’t even begin to do so.
You don’t understand the first thing about what “free speech” or “public space” mean in the U.S., legally or otherwise.
Enough. Seriously. Let it go.
It’s hardly punishing the guy. He said himself that he hates being around those horrible fake cosplayers. Seems to me disinviting Harris is doing him a favor.
You don’t believe in “punishing” people for their free speech by, you know, reacting to the things said. I guess that means who wouldn’t refuse to hang out with a guy who regularly ranted about [insert racial slur here]. After all, by not hanging out with virulent racists you’re punishing them! Just for speaking! The horror! And obviously, women should always put up with men who go on misogynistic rants, since it would be wrong to punish the poor misogynists by acting like the offensive things they say are offensive.
Or maybe we should drop the silly “speech should never ever ever have negative consequences” bullshit, because nobody really lives that way. In the real world, when you say horrible things you get shunned by decent people. Tony Harris isn’t owed a table at any convention: he has to earn it by not being so repulsive that his presence will drive others away. He is not earning that spot lately.
No. I don’t believe in punishing people for words or opinions. Certainly not by barring them from public places. As for your attempt to Straw Man – Who the individual chooses to hang out with is an entirely different manner than calling to ban an individual from a public place.
If you find someone or something repulsive, avoid it. Ignore it. Banning people for expressing themselves is what Harris was endorsing. You’re simply echoing his attitude.
Why on earth do you think people should be able to say harmful shit without consequences?
Because “harmful shit” is to casually defined. There was a point where an open discussion about homosexuality was considered “harmful shit”, same with interracial marriage.
While I agree that Harris was stupid and out of line, I am not comfortable with mob mentality demanding that any individual be banned from a public place just for stating their personal opinion on their personal web space.
“But if you want to act the same as Harris, that’s your call.”
You do realize there is an OCEAN of difference between punishing people for being the wrong gender or in the wrong clothing and punishing someone for saying seriously hateful stuff about an entire group of people, right?
Who are you to draw a definitive line on opinions? Who are you to decide that one opinion should not be allowed, to the point where self-expression within personal space is immediate call for banishment?
The price of free speech is that sometimes we must endure abhorrent shit. Encouraging a society that immediately punishes/shuts down opinions that the majority decree as harmful is a crime far worse than what is committed when one idiot spouts idiocies in his own corner.
Yes, how dare a private business themselves exercise THEIR Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association by not agreeing to support his misogyny by paying him to be there to give the evil eye at their event’s attendees.
Oh wait, right, that hurts THEIR rights, doesn’t it.
We’re not talking about shunning him for his religious beliefs, race, gender, or ethnicity, about immutable things or things that are just simply beliefs. We’re talking about “if he’s an asshole to my other customers, and thus driving them away, I don’t have to accept him as a guest so he can drive more customers away”.
There’s a world of difference between the two. There’s a reason the latter is legal.
You’re conflating the concept of banning someone from a public event with denying Harris the right to do business with a private enterprise.
And it’s pretty unlikely Harris is paid to attend conventions. It’s more likely he pays for his booth space.
Conventions aren’t public places. You have to buy a ticket, rent a table, or be invited. If you don’t act right, you get escorted out. Replace “buy a ticket” with “be my friend” and you have the same rules to get into my living room.
So no, it’s hardly a strawman to equate personal relationships and convention attendance. So I ask again: do you punish racists and sexists by refusing to be their pals? If you won’t be their friend and let them hang out at your house, you are punishing them for speaking. By your own weird standards, anyway.
In reply to Memyself at 12:56…
You keep eliding what Harris actually did here. “He just stated an opinion!” That’s one way of putting it. Another way of putting it is that he spewed a bunch of hate speech with the stated intent of shaming women and getting them to stop going to his conventions. He threw down the gauntlet here.
If it’s him or the cosplayers, and Harris has pretty directly stated that this is the case, I choose the cosplayers. I’m saying that they should be welcomed, and not the man who blasts deranged hatred at them. It’s that simple.
And if Harris didn’t want that scrap, all he had to do was set his post to private. Instead he encouraged people to spread it around. Stop acting like we’re a damn lynch mob who just chose some random guy to crucify for daring to have opinions. He’s a proud bigot, and there’s no more reason to welcome him at a convention than to welcome the KKK.
Or do you think we should set aside a spot for the Klan at our comic conventions as well? Can’t punish those poor souls for speaking either, right?
No. It’s still a public space, just privately owned and operated.
Again, your Straw Man is invalid. What we choose to do as an individual is not the same as banning an individual from a public space they have a legal right to enter.
My father was racist. My brother sexist. I grew up in a web of intolerance. And over the years, after many heated discussions and debates, both came around in their thinking.
I guess I could have shunned them. Banned them. And then perhaps they would still be living in ignorance.
I guess that’s what you would do. Or at least, it appears to be the divisive world you endorse.
Responding to Seneth Somed @1:15 am
It’s him or the cosplayers? Seriously? They can ignore him. He is not the convention authority. He’s one guy at some conventions.
And many people on this topic have very much acted like a lynch mob. Funny you should bring up the Klan. They wanted to ban people from places too.
If Tony Harris wants to put out a hate book and sell it at shows, then that’s another matter. If a person who happens to be a klan member in his private life wants to put out a book about space exploring kittens and set up at a booth, that’s his right.
Following your argument to its logical conclusion =/= starwman.
BTW, its lovely that your family came around and stopped being racist scumbags. Too bad for any black people they hurt along the way, eh? But better that racial minorities suffer than a single racist ever be silenced, or even made to feel slightly uncomfortable, apparently.
And if women are driven away from conventions by Harris and his ilk, well that’s just the magic of free speech. If we try to use our speech to oppose that outcome, we’re using it wrong, I guess.
Tony Harris isn’t the convention authority? That’s funny, because he sure seems to think he is.
I find it funny that Harris’s call to remove an entire class of people from conventions doesn’t seem to bother you, but my call to remove one man from conventions is a damn hate crime. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence; not for me, not for you, and not for comic book artists. You can feel that this is an injustice, but it’s still how it works.
Having Tony Harris at a convention with cosplayers, or women in general, is like giving the Klan a table at an NAACP convention. If you think the NAACP should be obligated to give the Klan that table, then we simply won’t agree.
No. Bullshit arguments that have nothing to do with logic = strawman.
Turns out people can hold negative views of other people without actually causing those people harm. But extreme over reactions are a thing for you, eh?
Banning someone from a public space is not free speech. The End.
I’ve stated my disagreement with Harris’ beliefs multiple times throughout this thread. Again, you’re advancing Strawman arguments.
Tony was wrong. So are you.
It’s pretty simple.
“Turns out people can hold negative views of other people without actually causing those people harm.”
Yes, as long as they don’t actually have the power to harm the people they hate. When given the means to harm the people they hate, they generally do.
My desire to ban Harris from my conventions doesn’t harm him, since I don’t have any conventions. Harris’s desire to remove women he doesn’t like from conventions is equally toothless, but lets not pretend he wouldn’t do it if he could. What Harris and his fellow bigots can do, however, is make con-going so uncomfortable for women that they simply stop going. His post came across as a call to do exactly that.
Well, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. I’m glad that Harris’s little call to arms has backfired on him. I only wish it would end his career, but sadly there’s plenty of room for bigoted assholes in the comics industry.
If that makes me as bad as Harris in your eyes, then great. I don’t want respect from apologists for bigotry.
“Well, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. ”
You should try “two wrongs don’t make a right”.
But if you want to act the same as Harris, that’s your call.
Sorry, but yes, the people who run a convention DO have the right to speak out and say who they want and do not want at their events. If they feel Harris was so far out of line they don’t want to take his money, they’re entitled to do so. It’s called both free speech AND how the market works. And people are entitled to suggest to convention runners that it’d be better if Harris wasn’t around to poison the airspace. And they can vote with their money depending on the choice of the convention. Speech has consequences. And Harris will pay for that speech for years to come. HE deserves to. You, on the other hand, are an apologist for a sexist. Sadly, this means you’ll get your ass kissed more often than kicked. Especially because you’re demonstrating a radical degree of cluelessness about how free speech works. May you wake up even more than your racist relatives did.
Where did I say people who run conventions do not have a right to speak out?
And yes, people can speak out about who they don’t want at conventions. That’s what Tony Harris was doing.
And you think he should be punished for this.
Ah yes. The “consequences” of free speech. Not much free about it then.
Regarding my “radical degree of cluelessness about how free speech works”
It works like this: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
I think you are entirely right with what you say there, Lysana, and I thank Seneth Somed for their insight as well. Freedom of speech is not a free pass to spout hate-speech and not have a reaction. It means your idea cant be silenced as such, but if you spread hate you may get others to hate what you hate, but you may also get some people to dislike you. That’s a cost people that take up a harsh topic can bring upon themselves.
I know I have no interest to buy anything he’s working with anymore, if that’s his opinion. I tend to try and separate a creator’s personal opinions from their work but sometimes its indeed best to vote with a wallet then. I still think that if he’s making con-goers unwelcome and causes them headache then the con-staff is within their rights to ban the guy from their premises.
You don’t tolerate a troll, attacking it heads on is just giving it what it wants, conflicts, but banning it from the premises gives it less ground to spread its hate upon.
As for the comic here, I kind of hope next comic shows the girl returning with a giant mallet to crush his pelvis to bonedust. Either that, or the rest of the guys at the store throwing his ass out and banning him from the premises.
Willis doesn’t strike me as a person to do violence for the sake of violence but this guy seems like a total dick, both in his actual words and his comic personae.
The real world is not the internet. You start banning people from public places because you don’t like their form of expression…. well, that’s exactly what Tony Harris was wanting to do. It was wrong from him and it is wrong of you.
Your idea of free speech = You can speak freely, but it better not be anything the majority disapproves of.
@Memyself you seem to be confusing the desire to see someone reap the consequences of their actions with a desire to prevent their actions in the first place.
Similar example: I had a friend brutally end his marriage. Not one of his friends said that he didn’t have the right to do it, but given the choice between inviting his wife and inviting him (when only she was made uncomfortable by it), we chose to bring the wife to social events because the situation was his fault. He had the right to seek a divorce, but one of the consequences of that action was losing his friends.
Similarly, Harris had a right to say that he hates cosplaying women, but one of the consequences of that action should be (in my opinion) being uninvited from the spaces where cosplaying women are found.
There is a difference between individuals choosing to distance themselves form another individual who said something onerous on his personal webspace, and an individual being banned from public events for saying something onerous. Particularly one that is part of said individuals job.
We’re back to the free speech has consequences thing. If the consequence for stating your personal opinion on your personal webspace is public banishment, then it your free speech isn’t free.
Even a legally acquired restraining order (which would not be granted under these circumstances) would not go as far as this.
“Ah yes. The “consequences” of free speech. Not much free about it then.”
You don’t seem to understand the reasoning behind the First Amendment.
The First Amendment is there to protect people from interference from an external government authority. It literally ONLY refers to restrictions on government. But as the Tenth Amendment states, all other rights are reserved for the states or “the people”.
I don’t know why on Earth you seem to think that the Founders wanting to keep government out of private business, means that they also wanted private business out of private business.
Also, it should be noted that part of a private business’ OWN free speech, is the right to say ‘no’ to a customer, provided they are not expressing it’s because of hate-speechy reasons. Especially if accepting said customer means putting off a lot more customers.
Also, since conventions are PRIVATE GATHERING, association rights apply. If you’re trying to attract a certain swath of people to your convention, you don’t necessarily want the guy who’s insulted them and caused a stink about it, to have a table at the event, because it will turn off people,and yes, you do AND SHOULD have the right not to have the guy on the premises that YOU have rented, for YOUR private event.
Saying they shouldn’t say “no” to him, is not unlike saying they should be FORCED to have him at their convention, which violates their rights of freedom of association and speech.
I don’t care how you want to misunderstand the term “public space” – it’s not a true PUBLIC space. It is not governmentally-run. It’s a private organization, renting what’s generally a privately-owned building on privately-owned land. They have a right to interact with only the people they want to interact with.
Heck, if a particular Church doesn’t want to accept gay people or divorcees, guess what? They don’t have to, because FIRST AMENDMENT.
Likewise, no privately-run convention organization should be forced to put up with his bullshit after he’s made a deliberate effort to smear and shame and intimidate some of their customer base. Unless they want to.
Or are you afraid of GASP freedoms other than speech? No one is saying he’s not allowed to say those things. They’re saying “he’s an asshole, and I wouldn’t go to a con where he had a table”. In other words, exercising THEIR free speech. With their wallets.
Conventions are not “private gatherings”. They’re public space, just privately owned and operated. That’s the way the law works.
And yes, convention organizers can make decisions on what to do with their event. I never claimed otherwise. But this is not the same as a mob demanding an individual be banned from a public space for stating his opinion on his personal webpage.
I have not been arguing the First Amendment. I have been arguing in favor of free speech. The philosophy of free speech long predates the First Amendment.
Frankly, I think the more fitting punishment would be to let the guy keep going to cons, keep paying booth rent, and let the con-going public vote with their wallets. With any luck, a majority will know that the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them.
If he decides to start some shit at a con, then you ban him.
Best case scenario is he figures out that you need to be a Frank Miller or an Alan Moore to talk that much shit and not drive away business. Tony Harris ain’t no Frank Miller or Alan Moore.
Yes. Very much so.
I hope Lucy catches a break soon, in between Malaya and Harris she seems to be having a bad time of it
Oh god Malaya killed her and this comic is Lucy in Hell.
Another part of Tony Harris’s rant: “YOU DONT KNOW SH*T ABOUT COMICS, BEYOND WHATEVER GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH YOU DID TO GET REF ON THE MOST MAINSTREAM CHARACTER WITH THE MOST REVEALING COSTUME EVER.”
If a lady wants to dress as a female comic book character, they don’t really have a lot of options if they don’t want to wear something revealing. Just sayin’
Come now! They also have the option of wearing a semiconservative pantsuit. There are various prominent female reporters and the like in comics, after all.
Oh, wait, you mean the point is to be *recognizable*? Never mind then.
I get people being upset at his way of defining females motives but he insulted the guys too. If someone buys a ticket for an event they should be able to dress how ever they want. This is even more true at a place where costumes are expected. How does the wearers looks getting judged even enter into the conversation? Quasi-Pretty-NOT-Hot-Girl is inappropriate everywhere. It is not OK to judge strangers looks period. Is anyone going around and saying the guy dressed up as Thor is not Chris Hemsworth enough. I think that if you hate your own readership you should stop writing. “more pathetic than the REAL Nerds” “Some Virgins, ALL unconfident “
And after a overly long list of who he directly attacked, this is the first post that mentions his sidelong bash on pretty much every male fan that goes to a Con.
How can it be that so many people missed that little nugget?
Quite simply put, he looks down on everyone who goes to Cons who is not actually IN the industry.
That’s brilliant! I fucking love you man!!!
As horrible as his rant was (and it was horrible) taking ‘prey on men’ and turning it into ‘slut’ and ‘whore’ seems like a…slight stretch?
Maybe ‘Gold Diggers’ would be more accurate? Still insulting but not quite as horrifically insulting as equating them to a prostitute.
Gold digger? What money do you think they’re getting out of it, exactly? Barring the odd prostitute that can show up in any context, that is pure narcissism. Pretty women looking for money aren’t going to be seeking it at a *convention*
No, his comments made me feel quite specifically slut shamed. I am hot but not supermodel hot and I like to dress up so I must be inferior and outsider. I’m *clearly* using my looks to victimize men by my presence and my interest in the media is definitely feigned.
Personally, I was going by a very old con stereotype: the hot cosplay girl trying to get you to buy merchandise, in my case, a resin model kit. Mind, that’s going back to 2001, a positively ancient time by modern fandom standards.
Oh, those fall into the booth babe heading. I find that phenomena creepy – not the girls themselves, who are doing a job, but the weird people who hire them to do it. What Harris went on about was women doing this for fun at the convention, as fans (or in his view, non-fans attention whores).
See this Giant Bomb link for a perfect example – a bunch of models tied to cnosoles for marketing value…but they send along a man to do all the talking, not even bothering to put him in a white suit: http://www.giantbomb.com/the-3ds-comes-to-giant-bomb/17-3905/
I think of him as the “handler” and I’m with Brad; this *is* weird!
Ancient because things have changed since then considerably. As someone in another thread pointed out, some people know nothing about the characters they cosplay, because modern cosplay isn’t about the character, it’s about the art, the design, the outfit itself. It’s a passion, just not one people are used to in geek circles.
It’s all about doing what you love. Isn’t that what matters?
Batman: The Dark Knight comic book sells about 70,000 issues a month, I’ve been told. The true believer/keeper of the faith-or-flame mantle is wearing kind of thin. I’m actually all for fans feeling they have some investment, some say, in intellectual properties, but gender-based screenings of same stick in my craw. I guess if creators do it, it’s OK (“fan service”). Besides, this is someone who WORKS IN A TOY STORE.
This means that it is actually being beat out by almost 50% by a My Little Pony comic.
While this discussion of Tony Harris and his douchetastic behavior is certainly understandable, here’s my question – is that supposed to be Grant Morrison in the blue shirt? If not… UNCANNY resemblance.
Considering that my wife chose Black Canary as her costume for D*C this year based solely on its design, and knowing nothing at all about Dinah Lance, I felt personally attacked by this fellow. Especially after watching my wife get so enthusiastic about a character simply by learning about all the different versions of her costume. And then she wears it in the light of day, on display for every man and woman. She didn’t even grow up reading comic books, I might add. That takes Amanda Waller-grade balls.
Speaking of Black Canary, the silver lining on this episode was Gail Simone’s turning Harris’ tirade into Cosplay Appreciation Day. Seriously, Gail makes the world a better place every day she’s in it.
Yikes, I had actually blocked that news story from my mind I actually didn’t get the context on the strip until I started reading comments.
I’ll be honest: through it all, I kept wondering to myself “Why hasn’t Willis done a comic about any of this yet? This is his THING!” I’m super-excited that you finally did a comic on it because I am COMPLETELY BEHIND THIS STRIP 100%. Usually on strips like this I can find something to intellectually argue or disagree with, but both Joe Peacock and Tony Harris just pissed… me… off… so… MUCH!
Just… just the ENTIRE thing pissed me off! Most everybody here has already said or argued the points I’ve come up with in the past couple weeks, so I just wanna say thank you and I love you all to the rest of the peeps here!
Willis, have you read Joe Peacock’s stuff on this too? I’m a pretty avid reader of his and agree with a lot of what he says–even if he does spend several articles saying something he’s already said in previous articles–so it deeply disheartened me when I saw his very ignorant take on the whole “booth babes” thing that started with his CNN piece and culminated in his unabashed endorsement of Harris’s stupid post. However–and this is a testament to the man, I think–Joe is rethinking his stance on the whole thing since a LOT of people have called him out on his bullshit. He’s startin’ to think he was wrong and is gonna do some soul-searching. It’s a shame he thought that in the first place, but it’s awesome that maybe, just maybe, he’s someone that can change his mind.
Harris, in contrast, just doubled down on his comments and that made him look like an even BIGGER jackass, especially with all those dudes agreeing with him.
THANK YOU, WILLIS! THANK YOU, SHORTPACKED! FANDOM! Next time you’re in Dallas, Willis, I’ma buy you a… whatever it is you drink!
I bet Tony Harris likes the Gor books.
Long time reader, first time commenter. And yes I’m probably just beating an already dead horse.
As an attractive women who enjoys going to, and working, cons and -ahem- “Slutting it up” while I’m there… that doesn’t mean I ALSO don’t know what I’m dressing up as etc. My personal preference is to take comic book shirts and cut them up to make them more cleavage friendly, not so much the cosplay aspect, but I’m one of “Those girls” who’s obviously only doing it for the attention.
I like to look sexy. I happen to be at a con. So I’m going to take my batmat shirt and make it sexy. Simple as pie. Yes I enjoy the attention I get (especially when I’m behind a table trying to -gasp- sell comics), but just because I look sexy and enjoy the attention doesn’t mean I’m trying to “prey” on anyone. I’m attempting to enjoy myself surrounded by people who also like what I like. Same as if a girl who likes football dressed up a little sexy and went to a sports bar. She wouldn’t be accused of not liking sports because she’s be shouting at the TV. If I’m taking the time to BE at a con, maybe… just maybe I actually WANT to be there. Also if a guy were to dress like a sexy superhero (Wolverine for example -drool-) and a girl he wasn’t attracted to came up and asked for his number, or to hang out, he would NEVER be criticized for just “leading them on”.
I would like to point out that it IS starting to become more common for comic book/toy/movie companies to hire models to wear costumes and pose for pictures at cons. Sometimes they hire professional cosplayers but not always. EVEN STILL if you run into one of these girls, they’re just doing their job. So yeah, THEY may hate nerds, or not have read a single comic in their life, but they aren’t being paid to.
For years Nerd boys have been drooling over women in skimpy outfits. Just be glad that there are women out there willing to WEAR those skimpy outfits you’ve been drooling over. Seriously, I have no shame, and some of the stuff I’ve seen at cons makes ME blush. Be happy you get to see these girls come to life in front of you instead of hating on them for showing a little T and A.
Also I would just like to say to Tony Harris that maybe if you don’t want girls dressing like sluts at conventions, maybe stop drawing them like sluts in comic books?
As a self professed male nerd, I say…well said. I do my best to not objectify women in skimpy outfits, at conventions or otherwise, but I’ll not deny I enjoy looking, both from the cosplay side and the “Oh god, that girl’s dressed as Ms Marvel, that’s so hot” side. So…congrats on not letting Tony Harris ruin your experience.
Hoping that came out how I meant it, and not making me seem like a total creep.
What I learned from Tony Harris is that women are nothing but vultures who have nothing better to do than prey on “Nerds”.
Thank you so much for enlightening me.
The burning question in my mind is why he thinks fake fans are going to see his rant in the first place.
Well, he appears to think they’re a pretty significant portion of the con-going public.
There’s…not a lot of logic to it. Don’t try to stick it all together in your head. The pieces don’t fit, when you think it through, because he hasn’t thought it through.
I kinda like his art though.
Human beings love to role play and be someone different for a day. Human beings in general love positive attention (ignore someone and it’s treated as an offense).
What the hell is wrong with that? Why is he acting like it’s female specific?
I dress up like a boss and love all the positive attention my outfit gets me on Halloween… what’s different about that? Am I slut (Rake?) too, or because I’m a guy I’m immune to any accusations of attention whoring?
Also, if people treat you like an ass outside of cons, and treat you nicely in cons… wouldn’t it just be natural to go to cons? I can’t think of anyone besides a starbucks customer at a big city franchise that purposefully does something to be treated poorly.
Prior to reading the other comments, my reaction was to ask if this guy was paid by Mayala do to that, or if he’s just supposed to be representative of random guys on the internet who call random girl on the internet bad names.
The lack of context here just makes the entire thing surreal and completely ruins whatever “Hey there are guys on the internet that are assholes to women and all civilized people agree that they are assholes but I’ve got a bug up my ass about it anyway” message it’s trying to portray that David Willis has been stuck on recently.
The ridiculousness of Tony Harris’s or whomever’s statements is so obviously ridiculous to sane people that a parody comic of it seems redundant. I’m not trying to discourage Willis from fighting the good fight, but the fixation on it as if assholes like Tony Harris were widespread rather than a tiny minority just seems unnecessary.
It’s hard to be preachy and entertaining at the same time though, so I guess in the end it’s not a huge problem that this page falls so flat.
I dunno if assholes like that really are a minority or not (I would certainly hope so), but I do know that they tend to be much more vocal than the non-assholes. At least until someone grabs them by the throat and choke-slams them into something hard. So I’d say parody comics, etc, are useful in shaming them into shutting up. And possibly making them not speak up next time.
The sad thing is this isn’t much of a parody. The comments Harris made were outrageous ENOUGH.
The problem you have with your complaint is that these comics are reactionary for the most part… meaning that someone else said something terrible and stupid about “women in geekery” and then Mr. Willis (I never know how to address you…) made a comic about it. If it stops being an issue, I’m sure he’d stop making these comics. Until then though, it’s nice to see someone railing against these folk.
Assholes like Harris may be rare in the “real” world, but if you’re a girl nerd? This stuff comes up pretty frequently by the muckity mucks in the subculture you enjoy. So often in fact, that it makes you wonder sometimes why you participate in the subculture at all, since you’re clearly not welcome here.
If you’ve read Willis’s comics on the subject at all, this is pretty much how he does it- take some behavior some people are perfectly fine with online, and show real human beings doing it in the store, to show how unacceptable it would be in the “real world.” If you don’t like it or find it funny, that’s fine, but that’s pretty much how he tends to handle these topics.
Um. Yea… As a woman, if I wanted to get laid by random strangers I’d just go home with guys at bars. I wouldn’t spend money to go to cons, spend time and money and effort in figuring out a costume, go to a place where according to Harris all men are fumbling, awkward, unattractive, virginal types, just so I can laugh at people I have contempt and have some (assumingly) incredibly mediocre sex.
B)People in general who don’t know much about their costume’s background have probably just recently become interested in the fandom.
C)They are probably interested in fandoms in general or else why spend money to go to a con?
D)Women are not evil succubi out to troll poor helpless geek males for lulz. I mean, really? What?
E)Sexism as a public figure makes you a douchebag forever in my opinion.
F)Thank you for posting this Willis.
Right? why spend I think over 200 bucks on NYCC this year (ticket, cosplays, various other expenses) to pick up a nerdy guy and get laid when I could go to my local bar and pick up guys for significantly less money? Apparently not only does Mr. Harris think we girl cosplayers are sluts and prey on weak virginal men, but he also thinks we are fiscally irresponsible. Tsk Tsk, Tony Harris.
Thanks for posting this Willis.
I wanna know why he thinks virgin men are so good in bed that women would treat them as prime sexual encounters.
Even though I know the context, this strip made me genuinely feel sad for Lucy.
What the FUDGE?
Who’s Tony Harris?
Guy who drew Ex Machina, Starman and a bunch of other stuff.
His work is normally really good, it’s just a shame that he’s also kind of a dick.
No way, that jerk is the guy who did Starman and Ex Machina???? I loved those titles! What’s it with people??
In my own life I’ve had this, only gender-swapped. My knowledge and like of certain shows and games has been immediately doubted a bunch of times by both male and female nerds, and I’m a guy myself (although I wasn’t called a slut). I guess I’m a minority, but I don’t like generalizations that guys never get questioned when I did, or even that girls never do the questioning.
The real love of a cosplayer I guess is in the actual costume making itself more than the characters they’re portraying. It’s a fine art, a classical art, and I doubt every costumer who worked on Game of Thrones or Harry Potter actually read all the books to an obsessive level. Of course Lucy isn’t so much cosplaying as donning a cape and cowl and being AWESOME.
Yeah, nerd fandoms in general tend to be VERY snotty towards “noobs” – I hate that myself.
The problem lately though is the hatred seems compounded for female nerds because so many classic nerd fandoms (especially comics) are sort of boys’ clubs, and so there’s this weird suspicion that they can’t really be into it, because, well, they’re girls. Since the kind of peabrains who assume that kind of thing seem to only be able to think in stereotypes to begin with (or else, you know, they wouldn’t be suspicious of the idea of a girl GASP liking comics), they end up slut-shaming them on top of all that, as if sexuality has anything at all to do with being a noob. It’s completely stupid, but yes, you do see it.
I think we definitely can all agree though that lambasting noobs for being noobs is a terrible way to keep a fandom going, and going only by stereotypes is grossly insulting, not matter who the stereotype is of.
I knew what this was about, having read other webcomics and blogs also ripping on this dillhole. I will not say anything on that, as everything I would have said has been covered already. I do hope, however, that whatever comic he is associated with has a steep drop in sales.
I just hope that there is a second page to this, where Lucy comes back and humiliates him somehow, maybe with the popper, or ultracar, or Leslie. Or maybe Malaya saw this and will come to her defence? That would be epic.
Who knows? After all… “The least likely can be the most dangerous.”
Except that Lucy really IS a fangirl.
Try telling them that.
As I pointed out upthread, Lucy doesn’t know much about comics. The one that she actually tried, the new 52, disgusted her so much that she gave up DC entirely. Lucy is EXACTLY the type of girl who Tony Harris was referring to.
You mean the type who watches the cartoons but doesn’t care about the comics? The NERVE of her, what a total skank, how dare she call herself a fan.
No, she isn’t. Lucy isn’t the type of girl who pretends to be interested in something in order to get attention. She loves the cartoons. She’s genuinely interested in all the movies and everything. Just because she doesn’t like the comics themselves doesn’t mean she can’t like the characters.
It’s almost like… wow, like the characters don’t just exist in comics!
Did you read all of Tony Harris rant(s)? His upset is with people who don’t know anything about comics, who don’t give comic creators such as himself the respect and acknowledgement they deserve. He describes people who don’t know anything about comics who go to cons as people who are just pretending. Because of course, cartoons and movies don’t count (Per Tony).
Having taken abit of time to actually read some rants after this, I decided to try and see his point about what he said. Honestly, I am posting this far after the matter has already been taken out of public interest anyway, but still…
What he said to public audience that follows him was stating an opinion which resulted in immediate anger, and alarming several people. Reading his words, it appears that he had his own, narrow look on the thing, and by taking this view he perhaps missed some facts like that the fandom is not all united in one view of things, and that there’s different interpretations, heck some stories have had so many revisions that there are fans of a particular age between revisions.
For example: I like a fair share of comics, but portrayal of Starfire has changed so radically I wouldn’t read more work featuring her, but I might enjoy work portraying fer as she was -before- those changes. The character isn’t particularily important to me but its one example I’ve sadly come to see in both “before” and “after” views and I wouldn’t blame anyone for not liking the new version, and preferring to stick to the earlier one.
In this case, its a fan’s choice who and what they follow. If Harris has a strict view of what should be followed and what should not, fine. Calling people names is just rising trouble.
I’m trying to be civil about this here, I’m certainly not in favor of Tony Harris on the issue in any way ,but I’m trying to give him a chance on the matter. I cant say I’d agree with him, but I can try to look at the points in general.
The accusation towards women is something that would deserve a public apology. If he was an average person who’s friends, maybe classmates/workmates might read his work, eh well, he might alienate some but be friends with others that agree.
He’s a public person though (albeit a very minor one, only known to the fandom I guess?) so he has followers that listen to him, and when he tries to teach them something that a few people might even label hate-speech, that’s where it gets tricky.
Freedom to say what you want doesn’t mean you can get away with it scot free. You should be free to call the government rotten if you feel that way, especially if you have logical reasons why (but please be prepared to offer a better idea then in turn, how to fix it, not just complain) but when it comes to expressing -opinions- without factual basis, now that is just … rising ire.
I’m familiar with some of the work mentioned, but after all this, I’ll never touch anything he’s worked on anymore. The whole matter brought him up as someone to blacklist on my reading habits. Which is a shame, because if he creates good stories, I should separate the author’s personal opinions and their work, but what happened here was just bad enough to sour my -personal opinion- enough to -sour his work- for me as well.
I don’t like this guy already.
I should probably stop cosplaying as Riza Hawkeye. I know that costume just has to be drivingv all the menfolk crazy!
Someone beat his ass please. With a 2×4 that has lots and lots of rusty nails in it.
I normally don’t say things like this, but I honestly wonder if Tony Harris got shot down by a cosplayer.
Oh, and I find it funny that he shares a name with fictional Xander Harris’s drunk asshole father.
anyone else getting a black background screen that hides willis’s texts and the comments?
other than a loud mouthed ass who the hell is Tony Harris anyway?
Well, among other things, he’s a comic book artist who is responsible for several scantily clad female characters–which just raises the ‘douchebag’ rating his rant already earned by tacking ‘hypocritical’ to the front of it. Fact is, the current American comics industry is rampant with male fanservice. Even the best female characters tend to also be super-sexy. So if Tony Harris is so put out by women in slutty clothing, MAYBE HE SHOULD STOP TAKING MONEY TO DRAW THEM THAT WAY.
Smartest thing anyone has said on this thread.
Here’s what Harris had to say on the topic back in February on his Twitter feed:
“I think the overwhelming presence of T/A in comics has caused casual onlookers viewing Comics as a lesser medium
I mean c’mon, look at most “costumes” worn by Women in Comics. They SHOULD cause anyone wearing them to become the latest contribution to a giant pile of whooped asses. Only real purpose they’d serve(beyond the obvious) is to distract male opponents to get/upper hand
Dont get me wrong, I am just as capable of suspending my system of belief to enjoy a comic with superpowers/magic etc.. but that stuff just rips me outta the moment of a story because of all the titties flopping around. You dont see guys portrayed like this.
Lets have a match game. Id love to see Dudes in Nasty-Bag thongs and thigh boots, shirtless in stories filled with gratuitous crotch shots.”
He’s spot on about some people and, as is the way of all generalisations (except this one), wrong about others. Arguing about whether he chose his words poorly or truly believes a vast majority are like that does nothing but add to the noise drowning out the actual point he was making.
His point was that females who *actually* like comics are the exception – his words.
That isn’t a point. It’s a bald-faced, shallow, stupid lie and should be treated as such. Even if he’s right about a few women…what business is it of his? How exactly do these women hurt ANYONE? At all? Ever?
If you think a woman is just trying to get your attention, then the answer is easy. Don’t give it to her. If you can’t do that, then I’d say you have a bigger issue than she does.
What point of his do you see as valid? “People go to cons for different reasons?” Because as others have pointed out, if you’re not actively hurting anyone else (and dressing up in a costume that makes you look good does not qualify as inflicting harm, no matter how badly it triggers certain folks’ insecurities), it doesn’t really matter what those reasons are.
Besides, if you make a point badly enough, then it deserves to be overshadowed.
i know that Jessican Nigiri and Yaya Han (who are the 2 most famous female cos-players and both HUGE fans of the characters they dress as) were spitting acid when this guys quotes went viral
M. Barrass, I get it!
OMFG I DIDN’T REALIZE THAT
This whole thing reminds me of the time a friend and I (women) were leaving a movie at the same time another guy and his friend (men) were leaving Green Lantern. The guy had a GL t-shirt on and I was waffling about whether to see it since the reviews were terrible so I asked him if it was any good. He said it was pretty good and then went on to explain how Marvel was doing all these movies to tie together for the Avengers so it was all going to come together. My friend and I politely thanked him and walked away and then laughed about how that had made no damned sense whatsoever.
Had I been Tony Harris, I would not have simply classed this guy as a newbie fan or a fan of the Justice League cartoons only or as someone who just had a poor grasp of the difference between comics companies — no, I would have realized that he was just pretending to be into comics in order to prey on random geek women who might ask them questions! Because other people’s clothing decisions are ALL ABOUT ME!
Oh no, she’s onto me!
…it took me a moment to remember that Green Lantern was DC. Oh, the shame.
I love his automatic assumption that all female cosplayers (minus a few exceptions apparently) dress up for the guys. Not because they want to have fun and parade around with like-minded people showing off their finished work (probably the reasons he assumes most men cosplay) Nope, they must be total attention-whores.
I mean really, why target female cosplayers? If someone declared that most male cosplayers dress up for attention everyone would think it ridiculous, but it seems to be totally plausible when we switch it to female cosplayers.
If you’re a man than of course you are a real geek, but if you’re a woman, you’d better prove it.
How exactly are you even supposed to prove you’re a ‘real’ geek, anyway? It seems to be such a subjective term. No one can possibly read every comic out there. Which ones must you read? How long have you been reading them? Which TV shows? Video games? There’s no set mold for being a geek (not that I’m aware of anyway). How’s he going to spot the real ones just by looking at them? Is he just going to assume any female in a costume showing skin is a ‘faker’?
And if there actually are some people who dress up solely for attention, how does this ruin your good time? If people are having fun and enjoying themselves, than what’s it to you? And honestly, considering the amount of time, work, and money that goes into making a costume and attending a con, you’re going to have trouble convincing me that there are more than just a handful of women (or men) who are doing this because they want the attention of people they secretly think are really pathetic.
I also didn’t like his assumption that most women cosplayers “DON’T KNOW SHIT ABOUT COMICS.” Where did he get that idea? (And if they’re not cosplaying someone from a comic book, I don’t see how not knowing anything about comics would be considered a big deal)
To address revealing costumes, the comic book industry is very male-dominated, so the outifts of most female characters show a lot of skin.
I bet more women would be willing to try comics out if they didn’t feel like they would be constantly evaluated to see if they fit so-and-so’s special geek standards and are worthy of being at a convention or comic book store. I follow many comic book-loving women on tumblr, and even wearing a comic book t-shirt provokes some really crappy things towards them from some guys.
Well, despite such comments, it’s my dream to travel to SDCC next year and cosplay for the first time ever
One thing I’ve never understood though is why we bother to give these random assholes of the Internet the time of day? I mean, judging from the Comments, a good chunk of the readership have zero idea who Tony Harris is or what the deal is.
Wouldn’t it be preferable that nobody knew who Tony Harris was or why what he says about women in fandoms matters?
I just feel like we’re drawing attention to the wrong people here, and it’s not just this comic. A few years ago there was a entire storyline devoted towards someone who out-and-out admitted to be seeking Internet Infamy.
Giving attention to that kind of person just strokes their own ego. Ironically, the more attention brought to Tony Harris’ comments the more followers he’ll gain. For every two people offended by his behavior, one will applaud just like the people in the background of this comic.
Well, in Harris’s case, he’s been nominated for an Eisner five times and picked up one, and he’s the artist on a great older series. Not a household name, but decently known in comic-geek circles.
Why give it the time of day?
Because it’s a stupid, and unfortunately, pervasive opinion in the geek world. Because, shockingly enough, ignoring it every time someone in the industry says or does something really sexist doesn’t really fix anything. It’s less about Tony Harris being a jerk and more about sending the clear, emphatic message across the geekosphere that This Crap Is Not Okay.
And if you’re tired of hearing people talk about it, boy howdy are we tired of hearing it/living it in the first place.
Well, hell, everyone knows that girls are only into gaming and comics and whatnot in order to get male attention, right? Or we’re only into geeky stuff because of Twilight or-
Okay, yes, my inner child who grew up loving Star Trek, Transformers, and Doctor Who, and spent a great deal of time pretending to be either Princess Leia or Wonder Woman as a kidlet is now sobbing in rage and frustration. I need to go calm her down. Preferably with chocolate and Discworld novels.
Just reading through Discworld myself right now, and for some reason you comment immediately gave me the mental image of part of Harris’s punishment being to get hit on by an immaculately cosplayed Nanny Ogg.
Although I would point out that Nanny Ogg has SOME standards.
Rereading Jingo at the moment, myself. Just finished up Hogfather. Susan would so kick his ass.
Not that far yet. I’m kind of picking my way through as they become available for download from my library’s e-collection. I’m currently up to Witches Abroad, at least in the witch story-line. (I didn’t specify that I’m on my first read-through, so I’m not sure who Susan is yet…)
Oh Susan is great, if you’ve liked the books so far you should enjoy the books with Susan.
Susan first shows up in Soul Music, and she’s made of sheer, unadulterated awesome. Nearly as much as Granny Weatherwax, really, but in a somewhat different way.
Seems to me that some of the same people who might complain that comics aren’t seen as ‘legitimate’ by the mainstream, can’t actually handle it when their niche interest gains mainstream appeal.
Oh, and HOW DARE YOU DISPLAY YOUR TITS IN FRONT OF ME WITHOUT LETTING ME TOUCH THEM.
Too bad. He’s a fine artist — his work on Starman was amazing, and I loved his covers for Azrael.
Why are all the talented ones douches?
For what it’s worth, Mark Buckingham and Todd Dezago are two of the nicest people I’ve ever had the good fortune to meet.
Oddly enough, most of the talented folk are pretty darned nice.
Because geek women didn’t had enought being seen odd by non geek people at school, work , everywhere…
It’s wishful thinking that she’d break out Amber’s cornpopper and dispense some justice. Say what you will about Malaya if that was her he’d already have the thing up his bunghole.
She’s gone to get the corn popper and find a gargoyle to hang from so she can take him out Arkham City style. She’s about to prove her geekhood all over his face.
I’m 99% sure that refusing to obsessively read every comic ever, and choosing to instead only look at things you enjoy(well written comics, really awesome DCU cartoons), and then choosing to spend an ungodly amount of time making a beautiful costume to loudly proclaim that you love a specific version of a character doesn’t mean you’re less of a fan, or a slut, or…whatever, it just means you have taste.
So I’m of the opinion that assholes will always be louder than non-assholes, and so things will seem bleaker because it will seem like geek dudes are all yelling that we’re not REAL geeks because, y’know, vaginas, when in reality it’s just, like, three assholes screaming at the top of their lungs while all the other thousands of guys around them roll their eyes and try to wait it out.
This was not my experience of this particular debacle, however. I only HEARD about Tony Harris being a dick through Neil Gaiman and Joss Whedon’s Tumblrs, debunking and ridiculing him. And while I figured a David Willis comic about it was comin’ up, the friggin’ comments, the anonymous Internet People who could say whatever they want without repercussion, are so fabulously… not dicks. At all. Frick, people can say whatever they want about us vampiric Nerd Girls and our cosplay wiles, but when it comes down to it, I feel like my fandoms are a pretty damn safe place for me to be, and I CAN fuckin’ express myself, without someone else’s imagined motivations tacked on.
I <3 you all.
I agree with the general tone/message of the comic, but these “strawmen” based comics are almost never entertaining.
Oh how dare he…
Let’s slut-shame his mother for every nickel we could spare, ‘cos as we all know, evil should be repaid tenfold.
Oh and in case his mother is deceased, slut-shame her remains for every nickel we could spare either way.
I love watching the apologists come crawling out of the woodwork when someone calls one of their own on his shit. Good for you, David!
I’ve read through most of these comments, and I’m amazed no one seems to have touched on one certain aspect of his rant:
“Ugly girls aren’t real nerds”.
He claims to enjoy the hot ones at one point, but then bashes women who aren’t a perfect 10 for dressing up and freaking BODY SHAMES them. It’s kind of disgusting to read.
I’m a second generation female comic geek (I learned everything about comics from my mom) if I had the money I would cosplay. I’m also not what’s traditionally considerd attractive, I’m also in a committid relationship with a male geek and a freindly person,so by his definition, since I wouln’t date any guy who likes my costume I’m a tease , a fake and an attintion whore? Well forget him, I’ll dress however I want. And to hell with what anyone else thinks!
So, um, for us ‘unenlightened’: WTF is a “tony harris”?
slut shaming? Really? What a douche.
Well, I’m not as tired as yesterday now (actually today, seeing as I wrote my first comment at around 1:30AM). And I noticed this thing.
He’s not a misogynist.
Yes, he declares the majority of female cosplayers at cons without perfect model measurements an attention whore.
He also declares the majority of male attendees in general incompetent with women.
Allow me to quote: “…average Comic Book Fans who either RARELY speak to, or NEVER speak to girls. Some Virgins, ALL unconfident when it comes to girls…”
So to correct myself: It’s not even male attendees alone, it’s all average comic book fans.
Yes, he’s implying there that a woman can’t fit into the category of average comic book fan. But what I’m getting at is this:
He doesn’t only insult female cosplayers.
He also insults male comic book fans.
In my book, that’s pretty much crossing the line from misgyny way into misanthropy.
Think it through some more:
“Average comic book fan”, those are pretty much the people, he wants to sell his products to. Respectively he thinks are those who buy most of them.
In other words: This is his opinion of his customer base. And it’s not very favourable, to say it nicely.
As for the misanthropy remark: It could also be temporal or permanent stupidity of course. Forgot to mention that.
It’s not misanthropy because he’s not insulting them because they’re guys, he’s insulting them because they’re nerds. This is in contrast with the rest of his tirade, which insults nerds because they are girls. (Specifically, not being the right kind of hot or the right kind of banging him.)
Hm… True I guess. Of course that way it’s not misogyny as well, because he only targets a certain, rather small part of womanhood (those that cosplay at/go to cons (and are not freakingly hot, I nearly forgot)). Or is it nevertheless, since he’s implying that no woman could ever be a comic nerd? Or.. Aw, f’gt it! He’s a jerk! End of story!
One that either obviously hates most of his customers (both male and female; misanerdy if you want) or is capable of astounishingly daring feats of applied stupidity.
Now I want that “Astounishingly daring feats of applied stupidity!” in the Superman-font or something similar on a t-shirt. Another one for the list I’ll have to make. Though “Snaaake… in the draaaain!” will have to come first.
Not sure if anybody mentioned this yet or not:
FUCK that guy.
Just wanted to put that out there.
Yeah, that really sums up all my feelings on the matter.
This is partly why I refuse to cosplay female characters. I’m already uncomfortable with showing off parts of my body, but I don’t want guys telling me I’m a slut or anything.
Cosplaying a dude just seems safer :/
For some reason panel 2 looks like Lucy is rolling away on robot style wheelie feet. I can’t decide if that makes this better or not.
I had no idea who Tony Harris was before this comic. I wish I still didn’t. Why would anyone say things like this in a public forum and not be embarrassed about it?
I generally feel kind of awkward about sexism in comic-related contexts. I’m never sure if I’m part of the problem. But this is pretty cut and dried wrong. I’m not even sure what else to say about it without belaboring the point. There isn’t a single justifiable point in the entire toxic rant.
The most frustrating part is that not only does he cast all (except the recipients of the coveted Tony Harris ‘REAL FAN’ award) female cosplayers as attention whores who won’t put out when they were basically offering it with their clothes, he also paints basically every male con-goer as a helpless slave of their own dick, a swarm of penis-moths burning up after flying too close to the vagina flame.
Not to diminish the awful things he said about women by including men in there. Clearly, the real problem is the sexist crap, but I can’t really add anything to the debate there, it’s pretty well covered by the rest of the commenters.
As a postscript, Mister Willis: Isn’t the ‘punchline’ on this comic kind of a ‘Funky Winkerbean’? Not that you can’t do that now and then, but even the strips I don’t find funny have a wryness that can tease out a smile. This is just…plainly depressing all the way through.
Question: am I the only one, the ONLY one, who thinks that portraying all those nearby men – all of them – as completely agreeing with him to be, y’know, way way more sexist than what he actually did?
I can see your point. But since they’re:
a) Based on the real reactions in the comments section of Harris’ public rant.
b) Only one male regular of the cast is part of the agreeing group, even though others ought to be present in the store.
c) That particular regular being the one in the cast representing all the shit that is sometimes spouted about women and not an average male member of the population.
I’d say there’s no sexism in that one.
Freely admit that it wouldn’t have hurt to have an Ethan or so glaring or at least bewilderedly looking at them from a distance in the last panel.
It wouldn’t hurt to have a woman in the group. Many of the supporters of the Harris thread were women.
I didn’t note how many women supported him, but I did notice that some women did support him. I’ve known some people who agreed with a similar post to Harris’s that someone else made that was less stupid in its language but still stupid in its conclusion. I had to talk to them and eventually got them to see why the whole “fake geek girl” and, indeed, “fake geek ANYTHING” was a wrong, gatekeeping conclusion to make.
I think having a woman in the group would definitely make the reaction more accurate and also indicate that there does need to be a greater dialogue about this thing–while gender certainly is a a part of it, a large part of it has to do with geek fandom as a whole. I have seen women react with “Yeah, THEY’RE not real. WE’RE real!” when they’re completely missing the point and, indeed, part of the overarching problem.
“Yeah, THEY’RE not real. WE’RE real!”
Ah, I’ve run into that. And I mean in real life! No wonder those would fully support whatever he said. Especially because I noticed many of them fully agreeing with Harris’ part about male comic nerds. You know, the whole “all insecure and uncomfortable around women” thing. (I call bullshit on that, by the way. But that doesn’t need to be stressed now, does it.)
It’s not great but it’s not as bad as his comments and especially not worse.
I understand the issue, here, but in Willis’ defense, it’s VERY tricky to write a member of an unprivileged group who has co-opted the structure of privilege (women who buy into the patriarchy are the most common example I’ve encountered personally, but there are racial minorities who buy into race-based privilege, homosexuals who advocate anti-gay policies, and so forth). This becomes doubly true when the writer, themself, is not a member of the unprivileged segment in question. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of accidentally attributing their failure of logic to the very trait that’s at the heart of the issue.
So, while as other commenters have said, there are women supporting Harris’ bullshit, it’s a bit of a landmine for Willis to go into parodying and critiquing them to the same extent he does the male Misogynist Nerd. It could easily be read as him ripping on a woman, rather than ripping on a misogynist. Sticking to male characters in this role, for the time being, keeps his message clear.
I have thought that in the past, but I’ve come to realize what’s really going on.
The Non-asshole crowd is off panel muttering to themselves about how much of a dickwad he is. Until Ethan’s in that crowd, all men are not being represented. He just so happens to be surrounded by a huge collection of tools that think he’s right, which is pretty much how it’s played out in real life.
Maybe the issue is more with the fact that most female characters within the culture are sexified?
I don’t think he’d have a problem with a person wearing a cape and a mask and regular clothes. The issue is more that his industry create female characters that dress in skimpy clothing. If you like your character and want to emulate them you dress in skimpy clothing.
I don’t see the problem with wanting attention personally. Why would people wear fashionable clothing, dress nicely if they didn’t want to look good? Why would you cosplay at all if you didn’t want somebody to notice you?
I highly doubt anybody goes to cosplay to trick somebody with completely different tastes than them into wanting to have sex with them so that they can in turn not have sex with them. You could get that kind of attention in regular day-to-day life a lot easier.
Maybe this comic could’ve just been a blogpost about how big a jerk this is though. It’s not really funny and a blogpost would’ve stimulated the same amount of conversation.
It’s true that the female comic book characters are oversexualized, but isn’t the idea that if they dress in revealing clothing and don’t reciprocate the attention they’re given one step away from:
“Look at how she was dressed, your honor! She was practically asking for it?”
Alternatively, a possibility is that despite nerds trying to cast themselves in the role of ‘nice guys’, there’s a strange and creepy sense of entitlement that we just can’t seem to shake. ‘She likes comics/superheros/sci-fi/anime! She must want to be my girlfriend!’
And when rejection happens, it seems to be ‘She turned me down! What an attention whore!’ when it really should be ‘Hmm… Maybe my approach needs work.’
John Kovalic had this to say: http://www.dorktower.com/2012/12/04/fake-geek-girl-dork-tower-04-12-12/
I found this website, the Hawkeye Initiative, that reminded me of this strip, and also of the strips you did ages ago on false equivalence in comics. It’s quite a fun site, anyway.
What’s that? A comic relating to sexism?
OH GOD RUN THE COMMENT SECTION IS GOING TO BLOW!
I know im so late to this party but… When i first saw it i was completely unaware of what happened, and so i followed a link to the event, and, i havent been able toanswer cause, i just dont get it.
I mean, i dont understand it. How are these women predators? Even if they are looking for attention and going over to socially akward nerds… What is preying about that? Is it because they are fake geeks? Is that it? So are they like metroids or something? Do the exposed cleavage of their boobs leech nerd boy souls? Were these poor defenseless nerds who had to look at boobies, or even felt the magically warm, firm yet squishy boobie brush up against them irreperably damaged if they masturbated after having their nerd soul sucked out by fake geek boobs? Its only at conventions right? My wifes a total dork, but shes hot in this really cute dorky way, but she doesnt know ANYTHING about comic books. I havent been squirting my soul away have I? Cause i dont think i can stop… In fact i kinda want to right now… OH MY GOD AM I A VICTIM OF A PREDATOR!!!
I mean, im a total nerd, but im sure, positive there is TONS of stuff about even my favourite ip’s that i dont know. Except Metroid. I know everything about metroid. If someone tried to tell me i wasnt a real geek because i didnt know certain random trivia… I Cant imagine giving a fuck… What the hell? When did being a geek become the new jock? Isnt it supposed to be synonymous with loser comic book/videogame nerd? That has to be proven now? You have to prove you are a loser? I Dont think anyone can prove loser cred anymore. I mean the bar fir loser has just been set so high i dont think being shy and liking things popular kids used to make fun of you for is going to cut it anymore.
NAME — Get a Gravatar
NOTE - You can use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>
©2005-2013 David Willis | Powered by WordPress with ComicPress
| Subscribe: RSS
| Back to Top ↑