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	<title>Comments on: Upset</title>
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	<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/</link>
	<description>Toys are serious business.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 05:07:07 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Brilliantly Aphotic</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-98779</link>
		<dc:creator>Brilliantly Aphotic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, he never said it himself, calling himself a &quot;son of man&quot; to show that he himself was a human (or as trinitarians believe, God in a human body), but God did the whole holy spirit dove thing during his baptism saying &quot;This is my son, of whom I am proud.&quot; Mind the misquote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, he never said it himself, calling himself a &#8220;son of man&#8221; to show that he himself was a human (or as trinitarians believe, God in a human body), but God did the whole holy spirit dove thing during his baptism saying &#8220;This is my son, of whom I am proud.&#8221; Mind the misquote.</p>
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		<title>By: Darwin</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-94897</link>
		<dc:creator>Darwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No, but Occam&#039;s Razor is an extremely persuasive argument for absence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, but Occam&#8217;s Razor is an extremely persuasive argument for absence.</p>
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		<title>By: BlueRam</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-94628</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueRam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 23:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You mean like how Mike nailed your mom?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mean like how Mike nailed your mom?</p>
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		<title>By: David Willis</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-87172</link>
		<dc:creator>David Willis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-87172</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m well aware of all of those sources.  The person I was responding to was putting forward an urban legend, one that says that there is Roman paperwork for all the folks they crucified, including Jesus.  

You have a very different definition of &quot;time-concurrent access to primary witnesses&quot; than leading scholars do.  

Believe me.  I have read dozens of books on this topic from leading New Testament scholars.  I&#039;m not pulling this out of my ass or Wikipedia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m well aware of all of those sources.  The person I was responding to was putting forward an urban legend, one that says that there is Roman paperwork for all the folks they crucified, including Jesus.  </p>
<p>You have a very different definition of &#8220;time-concurrent access to primary witnesses&#8221; than leading scholars do.  </p>
<p>Believe me.  I have read dozens of books on this topic from leading New Testament scholars.  I&#8217;m not pulling this out of my ass or Wikipedia.</p>
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		<title>By: David Willis</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-87170</link>
		<dc:creator>David Willis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-87170</guid>
		<description>&quot;Lunatic, Liar, or Lord&quot; is a false choice.  There are certainly other possibilities, like &quot;somebody wrote a bunch of stuff he didn&#039;t say and attributed it to him.&quot;  

The Rylands Library Papyrus P52, which you claim dates to within John&#039;s probable lifetime, is actually dated within the mid-to-late second century for a number of reasons.  If the Disciple John wrote that, he&#039;d be over a hundred years old when he wrote it.  He&#039;d also be literate in Greek, which as a first-century Jewish fisherman he definitely would not have been.  He wouldn&#039;t have been literate at all.

None of the names ascribed to the four Gospels are accurate.  Scholarly consensus has agreed on this for a very long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Lunatic, Liar, or Lord&#8221; is a false choice.  There are certainly other possibilities, like &#8220;somebody wrote a bunch of stuff he didn&#8217;t say and attributed it to him.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The Rylands Library Papyrus P52, which you claim dates to within John&#8217;s probable lifetime, is actually dated within the mid-to-late second century for a number of reasons.  If the Disciple John wrote that, he&#8217;d be over a hundred years old when he wrote it.  He&#8217;d also be literate in Greek, which as a first-century Jewish fisherman he definitely would not have been.  He wouldn&#8217;t have been literate at all.</p>
<p>None of the names ascribed to the four Gospels are accurate.  Scholarly consensus has agreed on this for a very long time.</p>
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		<title>By: Petre Pan</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-87097</link>
		<dc:creator>Petre Pan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 08:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-87097</guid>
		<description>The documentation does show that Jesus claimed deity. We have manuscripts of Matthew dating to the time when Jesus and Matthew, the author, were alive (specifically the Magdalen manuscript, for those who want to check my primary sources) and we have copy manuscripts of John dating to the lifetime of John himself (you could look at the Ryland MS). It&#039;s significant that we&#039;ve found manuscripts of John that early, mostly because most historical documents end up dating to nearly centuries after the historical event in question. Even if you place certain copy ms at 200 AD, you&#039;re doing better than many other documents we already consider &#039;accurate.&#039; If you study the historicity of Socrates or Kongfuzhi (Confucius), you can find much fewer original documents for their existence than for the veracity of the so-called &#039;gospel&#039; accounts. (East Asian history is especially difficult because of the lack of early manuscripts--we accept our sources, more or less)

Within those manuscripts, from these early references, one quick example of Jesus claiming deity is Matthew 26:63-66. Later, in the Gospel of John, he says &quot;I and the father are one&quot;--I and God are one. Pretty explicitly, he also says that &quot;No one enters into the kingdom of heaven&quot; except through him; that he is the only way to heaven (this debunks any idea that he thought the rest of us were somehow equal to him). John 8:48-58 has by far the most interesting claim, for those into Hebrew literature. In the original Hebrew, Yeshua uses the name of God, the one never to be said, YHWH, of himself. &quot;Before Abraham was, I am,&quot; he says, instead of &quot;I was.&quot; This was so offensive to his religious countrymen that they threatened to stone him on the spot.

Honestly, I hope you will look at some of these references. If you skip to the middle of the giant book &quot;Evidence that Demans a Verdict&quot;--admittedly a Christian apologetics books--you can find some good bibliography (I find that books meant to make a point are really most useful for their bibliographies.) You might also try asking a few university professors in Middle Eastern ancient history--it has to be middle eastern, because many historians will comment outside of their field with little evidence, based on rumors in the history department (I had an East Asian and European history teacher tell me for certain things I knew from Middle Eastern primary sources to be incorrect--it&#039;s not that they were stupid, just that they were speaking outside of their field). You&#039;ll be surprised how many things you assume about history, and how much is assumed in historical fields--for example, that Socrates existed. 

So since Yeshua Ben-Joseph claimed to be God, the question remains whether or not the man was a lunatic, a liar, or in all honesty, God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The documentation does show that Jesus claimed deity. We have manuscripts of Matthew dating to the time when Jesus and Matthew, the author, were alive (specifically the Magdalen manuscript, for those who want to check my primary sources) and we have copy manuscripts of John dating to the lifetime of John himself (you could look at the Ryland MS). It&#8217;s significant that we&#8217;ve found manuscripts of John that early, mostly because most historical documents end up dating to nearly centuries after the historical event in question. Even if you place certain copy ms at 200 AD, you&#8217;re doing better than many other documents we already consider &#8216;accurate.&#8217; If you study the historicity of Socrates or Kongfuzhi (Confucius), you can find much fewer original documents for their existence than for the veracity of the so-called &#8216;gospel&#8217; accounts. (East Asian history is especially difficult because of the lack of early manuscripts&#8211;we accept our sources, more or less)</p>
<p>Within those manuscripts, from these early references, one quick example of Jesus claiming deity is Matthew 26:63-66. Later, in the Gospel of John, he says &#8220;I and the father are one&#8221;&#8211;I and God are one. Pretty explicitly, he also says that &#8220;No one enters into the kingdom of heaven&#8221; except through him; that he is the only way to heaven (this debunks any idea that he thought the rest of us were somehow equal to him). John 8:48-58 has by far the most interesting claim, for those into Hebrew literature. In the original Hebrew, Yeshua uses the name of God, the one never to be said, YHWH, of himself. &#8220;Before Abraham was, I am,&#8221; he says, instead of &#8220;I was.&#8221; This was so offensive to his religious countrymen that they threatened to stone him on the spot.</p>
<p>Honestly, I hope you will look at some of these references. If you skip to the middle of the giant book &#8220;Evidence that Demans a Verdict&#8221;&#8211;admittedly a Christian apologetics books&#8211;you can find some good bibliography (I find that books meant to make a point are really most useful for their bibliographies.) You might also try asking a few university professors in Middle Eastern ancient history&#8211;it has to be middle eastern, because many historians will comment outside of their field with little evidence, based on rumors in the history department (I had an East Asian and European history teacher tell me for certain things I knew from Middle Eastern primary sources to be incorrect&#8211;it&#8217;s not that they were stupid, just that they were speaking outside of their field). You&#8217;ll be surprised how many things you assume about history, and how much is assumed in historical fields&#8211;for example, that Socrates existed. </p>
<p>So since Yeshua Ben-Joseph claimed to be God, the question remains whether or not the man was a lunatic, a liar, or in all honesty, God.</p>
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		<title>By: Petre Pan</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-87093</link>
		<dc:creator>Petre Pan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Roman historian Tacitus, Flavius Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and the Talmud all mention Jesus, with Tacitus, the Talmud, and Flavius having the most time-concurrent access to primary witnesses. Please read the original sources.

Is it arrogant if I say &quot;take it from a history graduate...&quot; Perhaps so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Roman historian Tacitus, Flavius Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and the Talmud all mention Jesus, with Tacitus, the Talmud, and Flavius having the most time-concurrent access to primary witnesses. Please read the original sources.</p>
<p>Is it arrogant if I say &#8220;take it from a history graduate&#8230;&#8221; Perhaps so.</p>
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		<title>By: Nitpicker</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-70005</link>
		<dc:creator>Nitpicker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Bible can be used as a historical source (as can anything that was written in ages past).

Anyway, the claim that Jesus did not exist is pretty weak as well. Occam&#039;s razor. Is it more likely that Christianity grew out of a cult founded by a Jewish minister &quot;Jesus,&quot; or that he and the religion based on him is completely fabricated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible can be used as a historical source (as can anything that was written in ages past).</p>
<p>Anyway, the claim that Jesus did not exist is pretty weak as well. Occam&#8217;s razor. Is it more likely that Christianity grew out of a cult founded by a Jewish minister &#8220;Jesus,&#8221; or that he and the religion based on him is completely fabricated?</p>
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		<title>By: Mrossi</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-69902</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrossi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2012 00:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It could very well be the blood of someone who created it in 1200. Almost all saints icons and relics of Jesus were created much, much later than the actual intertestimental period. 

That doesn&#039;t change the fact that you stated uncategorically that it was conclusively proved to be paint when nothing of the kind is the case. It&#039;s blanket inaccuracies like that which give people the impression that real science is not a valid form of inquiry into the origins of these kinds of items. 

For the record, if Jesus had the body proportions on the Shroud, he&#039;d look like a monster. That analysis of it alone proves its likely inauthentic nature, much less the carbon dating (which has been argued to be tainted from the medieval patching work done on the shroud) or the paint vs blood debate. A Jesus who looked anything like the image on the Shroud would be comfortable playing Frankenstein&#039;s Monster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It could very well be the blood of someone who created it in 1200. Almost all saints icons and relics of Jesus were created much, much later than the actual intertestimental period. </p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t change the fact that you stated uncategorically that it was conclusively proved to be paint when nothing of the kind is the case. It&#8217;s blanket inaccuracies like that which give people the impression that real science is not a valid form of inquiry into the origins of these kinds of items. </p>
<p>For the record, if Jesus had the body proportions on the Shroud, he&#8217;d look like a monster. That analysis of it alone proves its likely inauthentic nature, much less the carbon dating (which has been argued to be tainted from the medieval patching work done on the shroud) or the paint vs blood debate. A Jesus who looked anything like the image on the Shroud would be comfortable playing Frankenstein&#8217;s Monster.</p>
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		<title>By: Kosh</title>
		<link>http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-13/09-the-secondish-coming/upset/#comment-69878</link>
		<dc:creator>Kosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hollywood led you wrong all these years.  The insect bodies preserved in amber are nothing but dry husks--no blood.

I know you&#039;re joking, but since this is an arc about historical Jesus I thought it was necessary to come in and crush any peripheral dreams as well. &lt;3</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hollywood led you wrong all these years.  The insect bodies preserved in amber are nothing but dry husks&#8211;no blood.</p>
<p>I know you&#8217;re joking, but since this is an arc about historical Jesus I thought it was necessary to come in and crush any peripheral dreams as well. &lt;3</p>
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