I drew a small comic-ish thing for Tumblr a few days ago, and figgered I’d run it here today as a bonus Saturday comic. It’s not nearly substantial enough to be a real comic, but figgered it was worth posting on my own site anyway. Here’s what I said underneath it:
The response to the Starfire strip was overwhelmingly positive, but there was still a common thread among the few complaints.
Anyway, it was good to learn the Starfire’s personality is actually “has sex with people.” No more, no less. The questioning whether there were really any changes to her at all, so long as she was naked and banging, proves a somewhat more sinister point.
To bring things home, Starfire can have as much friggin’ sex as she wants. Just remember, y’know, why she does.
This is starting to remind me about the time you made of “For Better or For Worse.” I think you gained a zillion new readers from that one.
I prefer starfire as a sweet kind girl and I’m a lvl 20 male nerd.
As lame as it is to say this with the comic above it; My thing is that the girls from the Titans being sexually liberated really isn’t a new thing. I mean go as far back as Tim Drake’s introduction story, when he first meets her Starfire is doing cheesecake poses as she’s talking to him and the scene is framed as she just finished having shower sex with Nightwing. That’s what 1987? And then there was the stuff from the Bronze Age where Starfire and Raven where sort of, kind of, soulmates. It was a terrible story, but they used it for a lot of Les Yay with a couple of on screen girl-on-girl kisses. And that was the early 90′s.
Geoff Johns really did a good job of retooling the cast to be closer to the cartoon without ignoring their old stories though. Raven, much more so than Starfire, was changed A LOT to better reflect the cartoon. Especially including the Raven/Beast Boy storyline, which from a comics perspective came out of nowhere. That’s the part I hate that they threw out. I’m not always a fan of Johns, but he did some wonderful stuff with the Titans.
The devil is in the details, here’s an old and new snippet of starfire (from the link Willis posted yesterday):
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2011/09/screen-shot-2011-09-22-at-1.51.48-pm.png
and
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2011/09/tumblrlrvyo4a6oi1qdbn8fo1500.jpg
Same character, same topic, totally different way of handling it.
Okay, if you want to talk about context, I’m pretty sure that panel with Starfire talking about free love comes from a 1986 storyline where she was trying to justify why she was sleeping with her agent (from her day job as a bikini model! 0.o) despite being engaged to and living with Dick Greyson. Which was one of several similar incidents in that engagement, and one of the few times there was any justification given for it beyond “I’m sorry… But hey, look at my awesome breasts!” BTW, the only reason for that engagement, as near as I could ever tell, was that it allowed the creative staff to do about 90% of the Starfire/Nightwing scenes as post-coital conversations with Starfire wearing either a towel or sheet. I personally think it’s pretty reprehensible that they used her mostly as a T&A character, but from about the mid-80′s (when the Titans became a seriously C-list title) until the mid-90′s (when she was basically written out of the DCU) that was mostly how she was portrayed. Don’t get me wrong I think post-reboot Starfire is much worse, I just don’t see it as anything new (excepting that she, and everyone else in the new bat-family titles, comes across as mildly autistic).
My problem with that sort of thing is less about the sex, and more about the fact that no creative staff has ever allowed her to maintain a relationship with any real emotional depth. They actually did try for a while to set her up with Nightwing again in mainstream continuity, as a nod to the cartoon where they were the couple (and had a much healthier relationship than they ever did the the main ‘verse), but apparently the writers on the Nightwing solo book felt that would interfere with his ability to continue manwhoring his way through the DCU. I’m pretty sure Willis actually did a comic about that. I honestly thought the way the they ended the original relationship was pretty awful. Plus, it led into the Raven/Starfire storyline, which is something I personally think is the biggest slap in the face they ever gave her. There was a three year build up that ended with both characters sharing a subtext-y moment before being written out of continuity for a decade (Raven basically became The Starchild from 2001 and Starfire was stuck on her homeworld trapped in a loveless political marriage). So, yeah, given past experience I don’t see her ever getting a happy adult relationship, or anybody to write a version of her that can keep her panties on for more than three consecutive issues. Honestly, I think if the cartoon had gone another season we could have looked forward to Robin experiencing some shock and horror as Starfire explains that she “is having MANY friends”.
I disagree about the cartoon thing because I feel she was written better than that and more quirky and honestly really cared about robin more than anyone. They showed it many times in the show though I have to agree with you about the rest of what you said, mainly because in comics, noone ever has a stable relationship for long, maybe a couple years but then they tear them apart one way or another just so you can get them to someone else so they have someone new to have them love or have that love happen all over again, I mean look at spiderman and mary jane, I mean what happened there just made me stop reading spiderman comics in general.
“Okay, if you want to talk about context, I’m pretty sure that panel with Starfire talking about free love comes from a 1986 storyline where she was trying to justify why she was sleeping with her agent (from her day job as a bikini model! 0.o) despite being engaged to and living with Dick Greyson.”
And you would be wrong. That panel is her response to Dick, confused by the fact that he’s having intense dreams about Raven, saying that he doesn’t love Raven “that way”. (It seems like kind of a weird response, now that I look at it again, since Dick acknowledges that he *does* love Raven as a friend and Kory doesn’t seem to be trying to persuade him that he should be making that love physical. Maybe she’s just trying to establish that she’s not upset.) It had nothing to do with sleeping with her agent, which (unless I’ve forgotten something major) never happened. The only other person she *did* sleep with during the period of her relationship with Dick was another Tamaranean noble she was pressured into marrying for political reasons–at which point Dick broke off their relationship until Kory left the guy to come back to him, so actually I’m not sure even that one counts in terms of Kory having more than one partner.
(I’ve fallen out of touch with Kory in recent years, but in the old days she was in fact remarkably monogamous for someone with the outlook given in that panel. I would totally applaud Kory getting to actually *be* an on-panel poly, except apparently now it’s not about loving many people but having sex with people you don’t care about at all, which is so un-Kory it hurts.)
“My problem with that sort of thing is less about the sex, and more about the fact that no creative staff has ever allowed her to maintain a relationship with any real emotional depth. ”
Huh? Kory was in love with Dick–and said so, many times–for the vast majority of Wolfman’s Titans. When they had problems, it was usually because Dick didn’t show his feelings for her as openly as she did for him. Even during the plotline about the political marriage, she was portrayed as devastated both that she was having to do this and that Dick wasn’t trying to stop her–and that plot resolved with her going to back to Earth just because of the *hope* that she could reconcile with Dick. Things got rockier around the end, and I thought the breakup was very badly done, too (for one thing it was off-panel!) but there was plenty of emotion in that relationship. Because Kory was always all *about* the emotion, which is why RH&tO is, in fact, a completely new portrayal of her.
That comparison is really bringing into sharp contrast how little I like most of the interior art on the new DC titles.
You reactionary, defensive, old-school comics motherfuckers act so clueless. Do you think flagrant sexism in comics is okay because it’s been around for a long time? Do you think anyone is unaware that the medium has been full of flagrant sexism for a long time? Are you so attached to the boys-only club you’ve made of the artform that you’re going to keep fighting progress forever?
I’m just curious how close the servers for this site came to getting wanged, given how much of the comics “blogosphere” was linking to it.
I cranked the resources up as far as they’ll go, and it’s been holding well thusfar.
How does one “crank up the resources”, per se? Do you have your own servers in your house, or do you just have the person who owns the servers on speed dial?
I can never look at my Teen Titans DVD collection again without hurling inappropriate insults at the screen.
Now I’m curious as to what the appropriate insults would be…
I’m guessing cum-guzzling gutter slut is out…
In terms of my previous post noting that Starfire’s personality shouldn’t be based on the toon based on sales of the comic based on the toon, that still stands.
However, I do agree that Star Fire is getting a raw deal in her new image and I hope it’s something stupid like DC decides it’s been Blackfire all along and Starfire is actually held hostage somewhere and the easiest way to keep her friends from looking for Star Fire was to distract them with banging.
I remember you, yourself doing that comic a few years back where you had DCAU Nightwing talk with Starfire over his relationship issues with Babs and Batman… Good Times… anyway I had a point… just not sure where I was going with it…
Anyway its good to see that some objectivity made it into the mainstream other than CNN’s fluff piece about how the comics owned by their parent company were all 100% awesome, even though the writer said it was NOT a review…
The punchline to that Nightwing/Starfire strip was “Do I still give you the boner?” Which itself was her making fun of her own image as a brainless sexpot.
Though that was after her fairly articulate point about Dick’s own follies and foibles which, of course, was also part of the joke…
She has sex because that’s how she learns new languages, right?
No, that’s why she kisses. Well, one reason.
True but if she gets that from kissing then imagine what she gets from sex.
Aside from every STD in the cosmos, I mean.
Kind of like a sexual Babel Fish?
She can say “Oh, god, yes!” in over forty languages!
And “Don’t worry, it happens to lots of guys” in about seventy.
Also, “Baaaaaaa”, but I’m not sure what it translates to.
Nah, that’s the Transformers. With the Internet.
Actually I was more bothered by the idea that you think 2 million TV viewers (of a defunct show) would latch on to a comic. When has outside media EVER in recent years have an impact on the comic book that inspired them? Captain America the film made over $360,894,211 this year, I don’t see anything close to those numbers with the comic. I have a friend whose a huge Wolverine fan due to the cartoons and movies, and he’s never once bought a comic (of any sort) in his life.
Besides, wouldn’t these “Toon Starfire” fans be instinctively looking for a book called Teen Titans or even a solo Starfire series, as opposed to something called “Red Hood and the Outlaws???”
Thing is, part of the reason for the reboot was to set all the characters to their ‘most iconic incarnation’, the version ‘most recognizable and relatable to’ by the public. This was the reason we saw Steph brown pushed into the background so Babs could get up out of the chair and be de-aged into the batgirl suit – because the public didn’t know who Stephanie Brown was, and associated Barbara Gordan with Batgirl because of the old 60′s show and the more recent cartoons.
And as much as I didn’t like that change, I was willing to accept the stated reasoning for it. But if they think this is the most ‘iconic’ version of Starfire, if they think this is the essence of her character, or the version that the most potential new readers would recognize, then frankly screw them, I’m out.
Also, part of the reason the Teen Titans cartoon was so popular, and was so popular with a far more gender-diverse audience then many action cartoons, was that it DID have powerful female characters who were there to actually BE characters, and not just eye-candy.
Female viewers are an increasing demographic for action cartoons, and for comics as well, and they deserve to be treated with some modicum of respect as human beings. Frankly, the male readers deserve as much as well, and the pathetic pandering on display in RH&tO is disrespectful to everyone. Instead of embracing the dynamic of increased female participation in cartoons, comics, and geek hobbies and media in general, the DC relaunch has been doing its best to make sure any potential female fans who somehow stumble across one of the new books are as alienated as possible.
This relaunch really has been about throwing out the good to ramp up the suck. Way to go, DC.
I’m not championing DC’s decision to make Starfire a nympho or what not, just arguing the fallacy that 2 million TV viewers= 2 mlllion comic books sold. You “may” have people that were ALREADY comic readers check it out based on their love of the old TV show. (I started reading “Iron Man” after seeing the movie, but dropped it a year later when I realized his Rogues gallery kind’ve sucks.) This crossover pollination may have been possible back in the early 80′s, but it hasn’t happened since.
Personally though, I never liked “Teen Titans Go!” anyways, it was faux anime and nowhere near as excellent as “JLU” or the current “Young Justice.” All the charcters seemed to be broad trope stereotypes such as the manic pixie girl, the Emo Goth, and the annoying “funny” guy. I’d much rather see them base the NuDCU off the Dini-Timm stuff.
Who has actually claimed that 2 million viewers would ALL have bought a comic book with Starfire? You want to talk about fallacies, that’s an obvious straw man argument.
Willis implied this with the “bad at math” comment at the end of the comic strip.
What I was implying was that the comic book industry is flawed and insular, while a very popular cartoon has widespread mainstream appeal, and if the flawed, insular comic book industry wants to tap into a larger market and be successful again, maybe they should take some friggin’ notes.
Well, crap, now I’ve explained my strip.
DAMN YOU OWN COMIC EXPLAINING WILLIS!!!
Seriously, it made sense to 99.9% of us.
While I am at it, good shot, my man, good shot.
And just to put an exclamation point on it, I have finally actually gotten my wife to read a few of my old comics. She was exposed to Teen Titans as my kids were big fans for the entire run (they are now 10 & 11).
When she saw your comic on the topic, she said, “Is this real?” I took her to the link from your strip, and she was flat out mortified. I also showed her the older panel of SF, and she was uncomfortable with the sexuality of the character (as my wife was 26 when she was introduced to toon version, and did not experience her own sexual awakening in the time between the premiere and now), but admitted she could see that as the young lady that grew from the toon version.
TL;DR version: Chicks dig toon Star, and and see the new character as an abomination.
Iron Man’s rogue’s gallery kind have sucks? Huh?
I believe he was referring to everyone’s FAVORITE Iron Man villain, Benevolent Fellatio.
I think using the Teen Titans cartoon as a basis for character depiction is a little flawed when you compare comics Cyborg (mature, rational, dealing with a problem in the best way he can, and a natural leader, and without being a stereotypical black character) with cartoon Cyborg (“BOOYAH!”)
Yea but he becomes better as time goes on and even became a leader of titans east battling brother blood.
Also, I’m not sure “most iconic version” is really taking into account outside media anyways, Babs was still the most popular Batgirl due to her comic appearances and Wally West and John Stewart were certainly pretty high profile thanks to the JL animated series, but neither are leads in the respective solo titles. Maybe it’s meant as returning to the original hero to bear the mantle. The only exception to this being Robin.
Except that Barry isn’t the original flash, Hal isn’t the original lantern, and Babs isn’t the original batgirl.
They’re the originals in the sense that they’re the first characters to wear the iconic costumes that people recognize, no one thinks of the Flash as a guy with a metal helmet, or Batgirl in her hideous yellow outfit.
Actually, Barbara Gordon is the most iconic batgirl because of a certain popular 1960s TV series…
Just sayin’
Those comments people made about Starfire being all about sex in the original comic… were really stupid. Thank you, Willis.
David Willis, you are my hero!
And this demonstrates why there are so many nerds without female companionship.
If you don’t want comics to be dominated by a sausage party, you need to have characters who are more inviting to female viewers. Oh, and you can still have the boy focused fan-service on top of this.
There is a little country called Japan that has been doing this with their comics for decades with a lot more success then the US. (I can’t speak for other nations).
The reason I personally loved the TV Starfire is that they distilled out of here a personality, cut off all that ‘free-love’ TNA BS, and ran with it. And you know what? She was still damn attractive.
Nothing of value was lost. A girl audience was gained. All the boys could still fap themselves silly. Win, win, people.
Nah, that ain’t why nerds can’t find female companionship; women respond to men that are confident and have decent hygiene, 2 things alot of nerds lack. When I was young I was “Mr. Sensitive,” overtly concerned with what may or not be deemed offensive to the opposite sex. Nowadays I’m a smug narcissist, with no problem getting dates. Granted, it also helps not to bore women with non-stop obsessive nerd talk, like the history of the TV series Battlestar Galactica or whatever.
He types as he cries onto his keyboard, hoping someone will think he’s cool.
We are all posting on a comment section for a web-comic. None of us are cool. Of course, you are trolling on a comment section for a web-comic. That puts your coolness into the negative.
But wait! If I follow the metaphor for coolness to it’s conclusion, then a negative coolness would be cooler! That can’t be right! But if I say it’s increased, then you are hot, and I am hitting on you. No! Metaphor breakdown! (Cries into keyboard.)
Speak for yourself! I’m the coolest mother fucker in every room I step into.
This is because you shun the outside world isn’t it?
Haha! Nice comeback.
Exactly the opposite though. I love social events. Only geeky ones though.
Also, it should be noted that my definition of cool seems to differ drastically from others, in that I believe that posting in the comments section of webcomic actually makes you MORE cool, not less.
Do you do anything here other than troll?
I’m a girl, and I could discuss the original Battlestar Galactica series for hours. I won’t watch the new one though. If they are dumb enough to fall for the same exact ploy twice, they deserve to be extinct.
Girl geeks are out there, you just have to find them. (and yes, washing is a definite plus) We enjoy men with brains who are into the same kind of thing we are.
I can also discuss in depth: Star Wars, Star Trek, Farscape, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Elfquest, various anime, Terry Pratchett, History of Religion, the Civil War (American), the Austrio-Hungarian Empire, Genetics of Mice, and quite a few other things.
I like Starfire in the cartoon. I haven’t read the comics she’s in.
YES! Someone who hates the new Battlestar Galatica! And likes history!
And knows who Buffy is!
(Arkansas is a very sad place for us fem!geeks. :C )
As for the actual topic…
Hey now, Japan isn’t home to the horny tentacle! Why, look at fine examples like Demon Beast Invasion or La Blue Girl- WAIT A MINUTE…
(And thank you, once again, TV Tropes, for stealing my mental virginity. For the thirteenth time.)
Ha, ha. Quite true. I’ve seen this so many times, it’s quiet disturbing. I’ve also seen quite a few women pull off the “bad girl” routine on men, as well.
I’m talking more about crafting an environment that women feel more comfortable getting into, though. It’s a devilishly evil goal, because if it works, and more women get into geek culture, that allows the male geeks to get away with a few more rants about Battlestar Galactica while wooing the women folk.
And that’s just win, win.
You should be aware of 2 things:
1. You are in entirely the wrong place to be making such ridiculous and bullshit statements.
2. We Nerds have been successfully mating, breeding, and running the world for quite some time.
Welcome to reality muchacho.
Are you really calling Japan, home of the horny tentacle, better.
I oversimplify, but my point is that there is a large number of fanservice comics and cartoons out there to go along with the number of the good titles your are referring to.
“Are you really calling Japan, home of the horny tentacle, better.”
No. But I should, and I should call it better because of its horny tentacle!
“I oversimplify, but my point is that there is a large number of fanservice comics and cartoons out there to go along with the number of the good titles your are referring to.”
Now you are being slanderous, good sir! I made no effort to list specific titles that supported my opinion! That would require effort, and I am lazy!
In all seriousness, though, you are absolutely correct that there is a great deal of fan-service heavy manga produced. Hell, I’m having a hard time even thinking of an anime or manga that does not have fanservice.
Hmmmm… Hamtaro?
What I should have elaborated on more is that some writers/publishers in Japan have been very successful in making Manga that is specifically marketed to girls that also has a lot of fan-service for the boys (and vice versa).
Of course manga has fanservice, just as much fanservice as American comics.
However, Japanese comics also have fanservice catering exclusively to females. And that is what makes the Japanese comic market better than the American one.
And I, for one, think we need to embrace that idea!
I was an anime nerd in my high school days. Superheroes have been my drug of choice for the past eight or so years now, but even so, it was a bit of a shock going from a fandom where I could find merchandise with sexily posed characters of the male variety (and female too) to one where it’s exclusively the ladies who pose for your viewing pleasure.
What I mean is–Where is my “Sexy Men of DC” Calender, dangit?!
“And this demonstrates why there are so many nerds without female companionship. ”
No that would be why there are some many MEN who call themselves nerds without female companionship. Sorry to quibble but nerd is not a gendered term. Woman are nerds too.
Honestly, if Starfire was a new character, I wouldn’t really be offended by any of this. I mean, I consider myself feminist, and I agree that it’s a bit of a kick-in-the-gut when ALL female superheroes seem to be able to do is walk around in tight clothes seducing people and occasionally using telepathic powers or something as long as they have to twist into unnatural shapes and fondle themselves in order to do so… But comics being oversexed isn’t new, or anti-feminist, and the campy trashy sexiness is part of what makes them fun. If you don’t take it too seriously, and keep some bit of faith that the good nerds know truth from fantasy. (Good nerds do know truth from fantasy! They know we’re capable of things, good things, productive things, that don’t involve genitals at all!)
But dammit, Starfire was a character. She was a fun character with crazy frizzy hair and a free spirit. She believed in loving more than one person and she believed in showing that love physically, emotionally, sentimentally, or however she felt best expressed it. She might have been sexualized, but at least she wasn’t a sex object- she was a character, with personality, and humor and spice. She wasn’t a surprisingly well-made Real Doll. She wasn’t a brainwashed prostitute. She was a friggin’ alien from a polyamorous culture, and I dig that.
And that is why I love you, Mr. Willis.
/rant
Comics being ickily sexed isn’t new, but it is definitely anti-feminist.
And comics crushing a female character’s personality to turn her into a one-dimensional anything are super not new and super anti-feminist.
I wouldn’t care so much if this was a new character, but I also wouldn’t be interested in this new character terribly. My likelihood of continuing to read would still be inversely proportionate to the amount of screen time he or she gets. Not because I’d dislike the character, but just because the character is dull and bland.
I suppose maybe I could follow for the sex appeal. Not like I’ve never followed anything for that before. I’d need more than a couple bikini shots and an outfit heavy on the exposed skin though. Titillate me. Give me an outfit that actually flatters her. Make her attractive, rather than a caricature of sexuality. Now we’re getting into something else though.
Their approach to her character might have worked for the sex appeal in a different medium or genre… or era. She certainly reads like that first three minutes of a B-rated seventies porno before anything actually happens, but there are a lot of reasons that doesn’t work here that I don’t feel the need to list.
But yeah. As an entirely new character this isn’t an atrocity or anything. Just not anything I’d ever buy or read past the first issue.
But what if the nerds are women? How are women nerds meant to read books wherein “ALL female superheroes seem to be able to do is walk around in tight clothes seducing people and occasionally using telepathic powers or something as long as they have to twist into unnatural shapes and fondle themselves in order to do so”
Ironically, I’d be offended if SF were a new character. To make a new character like that would show that we’ve learned nothing. That would be depressing.
As it stands though? Cheesecake/beefcake have always been a factor in superhero/ine comics, but when I first saw Kori in the comics way back, she struck me as ridiculous even by those standards. Alien supermodel amazon with loose morals who kisses to learn new languages. Hair’s good, so let’s give her the most, the biggest hair. And the greenest eyes. And, you know, a little too much of everything. That’s like when toned is nice, but “his muscles have muscles” is grotesque. Wank fodder by and for 12 year olds. No finesse at all. That shit was offensive when I was 12. Now, maybe there was more to her, but after that first impression, I really didn’t care to find out.
So, much later, I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and read up in Wikipedia, and sorry, but no. Have you tried reading that with the Mary Sue Test on the side? Now, again, super-heroes and -heroines tend to score higher than normal characters. But Kori? Kori melts the meter, right down to the dumb extra apostrophes in her name.
Speaking for myself, Kori was someone I couldn’t and wouldn’t identify with then, and won’t now. So on a personal level, nothing much has changed.
And you know what? I’m a 6′ slender stranger in a strange land with crazy hair. If you can’t make a character appealing to her natural peer group, you’re doing it wrong, DC.
Yes, because a bland Wikipedia biography is totally the best way to get to know a comic book character better.
Not to be a pedantic jerkass, but I’d call it pretty appropriate. If a character you don’t know says or does something interesting (or for all I care, is just visually appealing), and you have no reason to distrust that comic, and your time is boundless, then by all means jump straight to buying a few issues, and seeing how you like them. If however good faith does not apply, then getting a prelim exec summary first seems a very good path, at least if you’ve read enough other articles to know what and what not to expect from them. In many ways, the character gets a more fair shake this way anyway, because you get an idea of them across several writers as opposed to just the current one. Then if there are no show-stoppers and you like what you see, you can still buy the comic.
(Yes, I realize I’ve been trolled here, but I saved so much time with the wikipedia exec summaries that I can live with that.
Thanks again, Willis.
I think the “why she has sex” is obvious: to sell comics.
I think everyone (overall) is OK with that. The problem is the execution is so, so sad and pathetic. There are so many ways you can do better.
And let’s be host. She doesn’t need to pose ridiculously. She doesn’t need to have lots of meaningless sex. She doesn’t even need to be dressed like a stripper.
She just needs to look attractive. People will fap if this one goal is achieved, and most comic book artists can draw half way attractive ladies (of unrealistic proportions) in their sleep.
It’s the easiest goal to make. Attractive women will get faped to. You don’t have to slut them out.
I think a big part of this is the execution. There are ways to tackle mature themes that are cool and well crafted, and then there is cr*%.
We got cr*%. Distilled, 200 proof cr*%. Cr*% that hearkens back to the worst the 90′s Dork Age had to offer. The reboot was a promise of positive change and a fresh take, but some of the worse elements of the past got through like the sh^& on your shoe tracking on a white rug.
The whole relaunch has been a mess. The issues with the depiction of female characters in many of the books is bad in an of itself, but the overall tone of all the books together is so… dark isn’t even the right word. Dreary. Gloomy, grey, lifeless, and just dreary. Anti-fun. Not a way to appeal to new readers. Not a way to appeal to anyone. Continuity’s more of a mess then ever, too. It’s like the relaunch achieved the complete opposite of its stated goals.
Certainly, the relaunch’s attitudes toward women have revealed that the folks behind it have some pretty profound issues.
It’s like they raised our hopes with all their fancy reboot talk.
And then the comics came and tramped on them with shit-covered steel-toe-capped boots.
Thank you again for tackling this issue and sticking to your guns.
While I’m upset about the personality change, being a fan of her from the Teen Titans run where she and the older Titans acted as mentors, and her run in 52; I’m actually more bothered by the oversexualization of her now. I’m not talking about the poses, the bikini, or the ridiculously revealing costume – I’ve come to terms with that being the comic book norm for ANY character. I know some people appreciate cheesecake too, and I admit it’s nice to look at, but it’s insulting to heterosexual males, homosexual females, and bisexuals that DC thinks that’s the only way we want to see women. Okay, that’s not true. I seriously doubt DC or Marvel think about anything but single straight white males in their demographics.
What REALLY bothers me about ‘Slutfire’ is that so far, sex is her only defining character trait – and it’s done very very badly. Throughout Red Hood and the Outlaws Starfire’s panels were either cheesecake, innuendos, or straight up blatant sex talk; as if that were the only thing she was good for. Combined with her short memory, the whole affair gave me a really icky feeling like Starfire was just Jason’s pet. Like if Jason weren’t around guiding her, she would just wander the planet screwing every man in arm’s reach. Also, given that Jason is having sex with her and BRAGGING ABOUT IT makes it kind of sound like he’s taking advantage or her. Now that Roy is in the picture, she’s being ‘shared’ between the two. Eugh!
I don’t care if Starfire was always a sex object, I don’t care if she was always promiscuous and had none of the human hangups about sex. Those shouldn’t be her only defining character traits! They shouldn’t even be major character traits. Evolve the character past that! People could argue that this was only the first issue and she’ll grow as a character later on; but the first issue was supposed to introduce us to the character and give us an idea of what she was about. The idea that I got was that she was a sex pet – not a good first impression.
Now I should apologize because I didn’t intend for my little rant to go on this long. Anyway, thanks for taking on this issue, Mr. Willis. I know you’re going at it more from the passion and apathy angle, but any stand against this horribly written character is appreciated.
cool icon where did you get it? Also you made some excellent points about her.
I just cropped a still image from the new Thundercats series. It’s Cheetara in her cleric garb. I don’t remember where I found it.
Doesn’t Starfire then have the same personality as Mike then? Last I recall his personality was defined as “Fucks with people”.
No, see… she lost something in the translation… didn’t let the kiss last long enough or something.
mike- fucks with people
starfire- fucks…people
But then again, mike does the same… but only to fuck with them.
gah, talk about a one trick pony.
Did anyone stop to consider that maybe your not supposed to like her very much at the start of the story?
If she was unlikable I’d be cool with that. That’s something I’d associate with some manner of person. I was looking at a vegetable. A piece of furniture.
Some manner of jerk-ass overhaul could be fine. If she was rude and obnoxious that would be something. Reckless and stupid. A thousand negative characteristics.
Hell, she could be a full-blown villain custom made to despise, and that would be something to work with. A shell of a person mentally incapable of having meaningful interactions isn’t though. A being barely above animal life that only seems vaguely aware of itself as separate from it’s environment and other individuals isn’t workable at all.
And you’re right. Maybe they plan on developing this somehow. They could have a plan. I cede this point. Right now though I have reservations about this and I feel that’s fair.
If that is the goal, how does this help to increase sales and cultivate interest in the series?
I seriously am asking. If she is not just super-shallow fan-service to fap to, what is the goal the writers have with depicting the character this way?
Right now, she is reading like a character a good number of people do not care about. She’s a cold, emotionless, boring person. That seems counter productive to the whole DC reboot goal of increasing readership.
” Did anyone stop to consider that maybe your not supposed to like her very much at the start of the story?”
Yeah the best way to tell a greta super hero story with established characters is to start a story with those characters acting way off model and being unlikable. It’s all obviously part of a brilliant plan and not just the sad crap it looks like. Uh huh.
Malaya is a great example of someone designed to be unlikeable. But in the comic itself, there’s tons of clues that it’s intentional- every single other character acting insulted by what she says, for one. From the preview pages I’ve read, there’s no hint that Starfire’s supposed to be unlikeable- the way the other characters react to her is mainly “Awright! Free sex!” The only reason this works, then, is if every character’s supposed to be unlikeable- and man, whoever wrote it ain’t no Dan Clowes.
Who would have thought there’d be some confusion trying to decide on acceptable sexual behavior in society today? I know I usually expect more from my entertainment media!
Wow… you’ve not been paying attention to humanity for the last several thousand years, have you?
saaaaaarcasmmm
I’m Sorry Willis but I have to be honest. When it seemed like you were complaining about characters being turned into fanservice pin ups I was able to see where you were coming from.
But the whole sex for this reason vs sex for that reason is a little like splitting hairs. The fact is she was always drawn as fanservice which is why you picked a fan of the cartoon Starfire to be dissapointed. With all the extra baggage that approach picked up, it almost sounds like your backpeddling now. This would be like complaining about the motives of Pamela Anderson’s character on Baywatch in the beginning vs her behavior in later seasons.
I could see an argument against changing a character, but Starfire was just the wrong one to complain about. People can rationalize it all they want. It’s just not apples and oranges being compared.
No, actually, he picked a fan of the Cartoon Starfire because that was the subject of the blog post that started most of the current froufarah.
Starfire was an interesting character with a lot of sex in her characterization for a very long time. Check out the segment of 52 (the series) where she’s hanging out with Animal Man. Tons of sexuality, tons of fanservice, tons of interesting character.
Now she’s a dull-as-bricks pinup.
That’s the complaint.
My comic predated the blogpost you’re thinking of.
Wait, what? Seriously? Well, thanks for tossing my logical point under a bus, causality!
I can’t believe that you’re suggesting, like, out loud and on purpose that why Starfire has sex is irrelevant and unimportant. So long as she’s eye candy, that’s all that really matters.
Really.
My god, man.
No, I’m suggesting, like, out loud and on purpose, that no else including the writers ever put that much thought into why Starfire has sex which is why they wrote her this way without thinking there’d be such a backlash.
I’m also suggesting like, out loud and on purpose that this wasn’t the point you were originally making. You were complaining that this new incarnation wasn’t like your preferred version which was the cartoon and when people questioned that theory, you starting pretending it was really the why and how and which way she dressed in her skimpy costume and posed and acted as fanservice.
And while were at it, I really didn’t have a problem until you came back with another comic today, obviously miffed that everyone else just didn’t see it the way you were trying to specify, I guess because we’re too stupid, and not because maybe we were seeing through your nonsense elevating a simple preferred version of a character into a crime against women readers everywhere.
Wow, man.
Wow.
Yeah, I’m always amazed by these “Internet psychics” who claim to be able to magically read between the lines and tell you that your intentions/thoughts/motivations are not what you’ve claimed that they were all along. Usually they do this by reinterpreting any ambiguity in what you said (or didn’t say) in their own favor, to support their initial assumption, or they just flat out misinterpret pretty clear statements and somehow think that it supports their conclusions. It’s like it would kill them to admit that maybe they are the one that misinterpreted your intent.
There are few things more irritating than being told by someone else that they know better than you do what your own intentions were.
” we were seeing through your nonsense elevating a simple preferred version of a character into a crime against women readers everywhere.”
Wait wait wait!
I can translate this!
Let me get my troll-to-english dictionary.
Hmmm…. this is a tricky one, a lot of it is lost to static. Wait… something is coming through…. Yes! Yes, here it is!
“1. What I like is always both factually accurate and morally superior
2. Anything that makes me uncomfortable is to be taken as a personal affront on my person
3. This includes the admission that other people than myself exist in this world and that I might be required to take this fact into consideration”
In an alternate universe author Issac Asimov was famous for his writings which later became the film “I, Troll”. In that universe these are known as the 3 Laws.
Mr. Willis wasn’t suggesting you were too stupid…
…but I currently am, Blinker.
*Slow Clap*
What.
God, I love insane troll logic.
Money equals power.
Power equals camel.
Camel equals five celery sticks. Five. Quid pro quo.
I thought it went more like:
1. Make deliberately inflammatory statements.
2. ???
3. Profit!
Ha, well actually I was referring to this old Shortpacked strip:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2009/comic/book-9/11-nerdfight/shovedownmythroat/
Also, I think this particular troll flies right on past ‘inflammatory’ and dives head first into “weird logic that only he understands’, which is why I referenced the insane troll logic comic.
Speaking as someone who is polyamorous, and has no problem with characters that enjoy lots of sex… they’ve done an awful job on Starfire. They’ve taken away everything that made her having sex a positive thing. If you think the reasons someone has or doesn’t have sex don’t matter, that the context of sex doesn’t matter, you don’t have much experience with real relationships and real sex. The why of the act is far more important than the how.
The two versions of Starfire may have identical amounts of sex, but they are two very different people.
I love how this is just mutating all over the place. Now instead of it simply being Walky likes cartoon Starfire over new Starfire, its now a thing over healthy sex in general.
Know what show you would like. The Bunny Club. The writers go out of their way to show these girls are running around in bunny outfits for Black rights and lesbian rights and who knows what else, and appearantly this is supposed to mean that the show isn’t just a dumb T&A fest about cute girls in bunny suits.
That’s the crap I find insulting. Because not only is it pointless fanservice but it tries to pass itself off as a feminist message for idiots. I’m sure after this, the next issue of the Outlaws will have Starfire belch out some dumb overwrought reason why she is fanservice and appearantly that will make everyone happy.
Then you wonder why writers don’t know how to wright characters anymore. Because people put out these cryptic responses like it’s okay if she acts like a bimbo but only for reasons that don’t make me feel guilty for lusting over her. No, none of this is stupid.
So yeah, when it comes to fictional media, the why really doesn’t matter. because if Wonder Woman gave oral sex to the entire DC universe but had a really really really good reason, I doubt it would be an issue College bound Lucy would embrace.
When your opinion does not match with that of others it isn’t necessarily always because you were thinking and they weren’t. And a good course on sexuality in media would probably go a long way toward helping you see that the ‘line’ between storyline and fanservice isn’t always a hard border, and many of those in popular take pride in blurring that line and offering both popular content and depth at the same time. It doesn’t always work well, but when it fails it wasn’t because their trick on you was poorly planned.
You seem to have a lot of rage towards women, especially women having any sort of power, prominence, or substance.
Methinks mommy issues.
A+ Trolling. Good job, man!
No seriously.
What.
It seems to me that an undercurrent of the negative comments is that David dared to challenge that increasingly insular world of comics. Saying that a an animated adaptation is doing something better than the source material has long been a bitter pill to swallow (see: Firestar’s transition to the Marvel Universe, and pretty much anything that the Sunbow G.I. Joe-which was written largely by a who’s who of Marvel Comics in the ’70s-introduced into the mythos, save for the Flint/Lady Jaye romance), because, in case you hadn’t noticed, cartoons are for little kids, and comics are for adults.
“…because, in case you hadn’t noticed, cartoons are for little kids, and comics are for adults.”
I think cartoons have the option of reaching a broader audience more readily, and can be for both kids and adults.
Personally, I think this might be why I feel the TV version of Starfire was a bit better then the initial comic book version (and of course vastly better then ‘Slutfire,’ but that goes without saying). The character needed to work for a larger demographic (kids and some of the older comic readers), so other parts of her character (relationships, powers, attitude) got focused on and seemed to round her out more.
It’s kind of weird, given that I think comics where originally marketed for kids. Are they more focused on the teen to adult market now because of their increased price, and the belief that kids do not have access to the same disposable income?
They’re marketed to teens – adults not only because of price, but more so because the primary avenues of getting kids into the comic world (all those spinner racks that used to be at virtually every convenience store, grocery store, and drug store in the country) dried up almost completely. The move to the “direct market” killed comics as surely as any degree of storytelling, price increases, or anything else.
Put more simply, parents aren’t likely inclined to take a “special trip” to the comic shop (often in out-of-the-way places) which is basically the only place in town that carries comics in any significant numbers and is filled with strange kids with questionable hygiene and possibly social disorders (yes, horribly stereotypical, but it’s a stereotype with a lot of truth to it). Maybe there’s a Barnes and Noble or other “Big Box” bookstore nearby that carries a healthy selection of comics, but even then it’s still a trip that’s outside the norm. It used to be you could find comics just about everywhere. Now you can’t.
But yes…the price increases sure as heck don’t help. Don’t mean to drown out that point. Back in the spinner-rack days the price was usually low enough ($1.00 or less) that they could be a simple impulse buy to keep your kid quiet while you shopped for groceries or whatever. Now? Not so much….
I stopped buying comic books two years ago, after reading comics regularly since 1990. The cost was a big push make me stop buying comic books.
After reading several good things about the new All Star Westerns #1, I was tempted to buy that comic. I went to a comic book store to buy it, but then I changed my mind. Not that the price was a surprise to me, but it just me hesitant to buy the comic book. I think I’ll just wait for the inevitable trade paperback.
One good thing about the particular comic book store I went to was that it’s in a shopping mall. This makes it more convenient than most comic book stores. One that I know of won’t open until late in the afternoon, pretty much what is most convenient to the store’s owner.
The price and the direct market thing are linked. They need the direct market format in order to get enough turnover at the prices. (The prices are also mostly out of their control, the low quality paper they used to use to keep prices down is more expensive now).
I remember those days as well, I pretty much got into comics that way so I find it odd why they stopped doing it. I mean why would they kill something like that?
But now they’re going digital as well. While you’ll have to pry my hard copies from my cold dead hands, I’m still stoked because I didn’t get to read comics as a kid for precisely the reason you gave–I couldn’t get to a comic shop. Got a few comics once in a blue moon, but that was it.
Now it’s digital. And this generation of kids grow up using technology the same way that fish grow up breathing water and fawns walk a few hours after being born. That’s their world, man. There is no “shop” they can’t get to.
What DC should’ve done, darn it…they SHOULD’VE made about 50% of the new output kid-accessible, not childish, just all-age-friendly, like the DCAU, and focused on the tech-aspect. The price is a problem, but kids get iTunes gift-cards all the time. Why not make comic market-type girftcards that work the same way? Push that in Best Buys and Game Stops, pop it on the shelf with the impulse buys and watch the parents pick one up for a kid because, well, why not?
I think I heard Mike say Starfire will do anyone. For a nickel.
There’s a nasty Facebook survey ad (survey rewards something or other) that is taking over the whole screen. Just lettin’ you know.
Facebinks, not facebook.
Specifically from “http://facebinks.com/ads.php” (with a fake snapshot of the shortpacked site in the background to make you think you can click out of it or reload to get away– you can’t.)
Similar complaints logged here:
http://getsatisfaction.com/contextweb/topics/facebinks_ipad_2_malicious_redirect
I should also probably mention it labels this inescapable popup “an exclusive offer from Shortpacked.com”, neatly shifting blame your way instead of theirs.
http://www.channelate.com/2011/09/11/pop-over-ads/
…ad if I’m reading your Project Wonderful data right (https://www.projectwonderful.com/advertisehere.php?id=29441&type=7)
It’s loaded your site 400 times in the last 24 hours to create those background screenshots. *thumbs up*
And not to be tiresome, but: http://i53.tinypic.com/2u5b7ma.png
(Snapshot of offending ad.)
Tiresome, no. As someone who moderates a site I appreciate knowing as much as I can about what bugs needs squashing. I only dislike being told about it when it is by those who should know already that I already know. There is the line between nagging and helpful IMO.
Yeah, one of the two people who registered that complaint 19 days ago was me. I took down ads and cautiously put them up a few days later, and then there were no problems again until today. Looks like there’s another wave. Annoying.
The spam gets more and more advanced daily it seems. I deal with a political forum so you can imagine the many types of spam we see over there being that the host the site serves is nationally syndicated. Irritating to no end.
Well, I’ve replaced the Bad Ads with Google for the interim, as I did before. I’ll take a hit in income, but… uh… not sure what else to do…
” To bring things home, Starfire can have as much friggin’ sex as she wants. Just remember, y’know, why she does.”
Because Marv Wolfman and Greoge Lopez were middle aged and horny and DC wanted the “NEW” Teen Titans to be edgier.
The idea of what makes a cute low self esteem knock-out stripper from space character has changed since 1980. Back then old men fantasized about naive, mostly happy, affectionate, and fun loving ‘companions’ who felt admiration for the person who they bounced and wobbled for. There was a desire for attachment between fading horn-dog and imaginary lady-toy. It was trying to hold onto to youth in the realm of fantasy if nowhere else.
Now the “creators” apparently prefer creepy, pathological, and cold (and probably freaky). Maybe they don’t like the idea of needing to break up after the novel bubblegum taste goes away. They want a Starfire who’ll go away after three dates. And they don’t want to feel like they exploited her or deceived her. She signed up for it and she walked away when she was done. No guilt.
Again, the animated series wisely saw the scuzzy-aging male porniness in the character and threw it away and kept what they could of the character which was orange skin, green eyes, alien origin, and powers. That was refined into a pretty good character with an actual personality and presence who was not there just to be sexy in a metal bikini thing.
“They want a Starfire who’ll go away after three dates.”
The sad thing is, this is damn near explicitly in the text. Not only did they make the aforementioned personality change to turn her into this emotionless sex doll, but then they made her forget everyone all the time, too. I think it’s interesting how we’re not talking about that more, because there’s literally no other purpose for it – just for her to never have any attachment to anyone she fucks.
Starfire changed her named to Fleshlight.
“They want a Starfire who’ll go away after three dates. And they don’t want to feel like they exploited her or deceived her.”
That’s the weirdest part of this for me. I’m pretty sure that’s what they were going for, but it’s not what they gave us. I have to believe that if I were the type to go strolling through the special olympics looking for poon then walking out with my sense of decency intact wouldn’t be such a huge concern. As is, I gotta say these “Sexy times” seem less sexy and more… scuzzy? Sleezy? Little bit rapey? Maybe a hint of bestiality flavoring. Whatever it is it’s not a turn on.
What happens between two consenting adults is one thing. What happens between an adult and his neighbor’s brain addled poodle is nothing I need to see.
Another angle. I’ve been hearing a lot of cool stuff about Roy and Jason leading up to this. Was really looking forward to checking them out here. Can’t say this is the first impression I was hoping for. Kind of though I’d be looking at some manner of anti-heros or anti-villains of just flatout guns for hire. What I got was a few pages of prison break and then multiple detailed discussions about their pass time as sexual predators. Also some kind of cosmo-ghost or something. No idea what happened there. The synopsis said this issue was gonna be Red Hood being approached to try leading their group, bringing the lone wolf into an uncomfortable position. When did that happen?
Quote: ["As is, I gotta say these “Sexy times” seem less sexy and more… scuzzy? Sleezy? Little bit rapey? Maybe a hint of bestiality flavoring."]
I’m actually quite fond of all of those with the right mood, but I think the word which best describes why I’m not attracted to the new Starfire is how terribly COLD she seems. Downright sociopathic, even. It tugs painfully at my heartstrings, dispelling any sexual thoughts from my mind, and makes me want to offer her a warm beverage, a soft blanket and a patient ear.
The trait which makes me see her older variant as downright wonderful and surprisingly unique was that she genuinely CARED for people. And not just about those she had an established relationship with, but almost everyone, individually. It’s a quality so rare that I honestly cannot think of any other DC character who possesses it, although my familiarity with the universe is far from absolute. The only one I can think of who comes close is Superman himself, and he still mostly cares about everyone in a generic, dispassionate, ‘it’s my job’ sort of way. He’s very likeable and snuggly, but not nearly as warm-hearted as Starfire. *nodnod*
*sighs and curls up in a blankie* Time to watch some MLP and restock my warm-and-fuzzies reserves.
The comic more or less ended the whole DC debate in a nutshell. Now do one about DiDio saying the old crisies in the Old DCU are retconned even though Bob Harras and Eddie Berganzo said a month or too before the events we’re still valid. There might a New-52 Crisis instead. Who do you think the Strange Purple Woman is = Harbinger = New 52 Anti-Monitor = New 52 Crisis.
I have no attachment to any Crisis, even the ones I read! (Maybe especially the ones I read.) So those can go away if they want.
Nooo… it’s the last strip.. I just everything from the first to now in the past 2 days. Now I have to wait for updates… It’s reality all over again.
I like your work.. it’s realy captivating.
“Just remember, y’know, why she does.” Because she’s nothing but wank material for lonely teenage heterosexual boys, right?
When did Duncan get an account on your website?
I say we go with Ethan’s plan from when Transformers Animated was cancelled. Get all the writers and artist together(from both the cartoon and the comic books Teen Titans Go!) and get them to continue to series somehow. That way we get the Starfire some of us actually liked, story from the comic, new episodes, and less overly emotional Starfire doing sexy poses in the background.