Ha, how I would love it if everyone thought that way. >>
Actually, that’s true. There is not one word about lesbians in the bible. In fact, if you read the Song Of Solomon, you get the distinct impression that girl-on-girl action is just fine and dandy. As far as G-D is concerned, if you keep your penis out of someone’s anus (girl or boy) then you are good.
I’m pretty sure I read something in the Old Testament condemning man-on-man sex and then going on to say “and even their women were perverted!” But it’s been so long since I actually cared that I have no clue where it was. But yeah. Pretty sure there was an oblique reference in there.
That second part is in the “new testament”. It’s in a letter written to a small group in Greece and includes such things as not shattering the larger group.
I knew a religious jewish lesbian in college who seriously made the argument that there was nothing in the old testament about lesbians. But then she was liberal enough that I doubt that would have changed anything for her if it was otherwise.
It’s true. Girl-on-girl isn’t mentioned until the New Testament.
(Well, more accurately, same-sex-hanky-panky-in-general was mentioned in the New Testament. Until then, only guy-on-guy was singled out.)
The Old Testament only bans anal sex between two men (at least according to most interpretations); technically, two men could live together and have other forms of sex without violating the Torah. However, Orthodox rabbinical thought prohibits same-sex relationships between two men or two women. Whether someone follows this or not depends on his or her rabbi, but most Orthodox Jews are against it. It’s a big problem within the community, partly for Torah-based reasons and partly from run-of-the-mill homophobia.
Being raised Catholic, I gotta say Robin’s parents don’t understand the teachings of the Church at all, and evidently don’t care. And there are, in fact, passages in the Bible about homosexuality. for example:
“You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
True, this is from the Old Testament, and many wish to say that Jesus threw out the OT and replaced it with tolerance and relativism in the New Testament. But He didn’t, He culled away the laws of man and left the Law of God. At any rate, there are definite references to God’s view of homosexuality, and all immoral ways of living, throughout the entire Bible, if you look for it. Here are two quick examples of it from the NT:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
-1 Corinthians 6:9-10
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?”
Matthew 19: 4-5
Not saying this to hate on anybody, I’m just bringing awareness to the fact that God is not a God of tolerance and relativism; He is a jealous God, and is a God of judgment. His rules are clearly laid out; all we have to do is follow them if we so choose.
That would be why Robin says ‘sorta’ catholic. It means they probably called themselves catholic, without actually following every detail and belief that catholics are supposed to. Probably they just ignored all the ‘burn in fire’ aspects in favour of the ‘love thy neighbour’ ones, probably for the very reasons you yourself listed. No one wants to listen to a jealous, petty hardass.
I agree. Sorta catholic means you like a lot of what the good book says, but ultimately are capable of forming independent opinions.
There’s also the opinion that in the case of apparent conflict one should prioritize. So rather than choosing to dwell on hateful thoughts and oppress a minority, one might decide that the more all encompassing messages of loving thy neighbor and serving your fellow man.
Admittedly there are passages in the bible that would support stoning of homosexuals, burning of witches, ostracizing of heathens etc. We live in the 21′st century in a country predicated to freedom and everything that entails. It doesn’t actually have a proper place for a vengeful god. Nor should it.
Clearly you and I are living in different versions of the US, because in mine God is shoved down everyones throats, muslims are hated on, kids are taught that God put fossils in the ground to tempt us, that the world is no older then 10 or so thousand years, all in public schools no less!!
Oh, and lets not forget the 1 public school (in Michigan if memory serves) where black students were told they weren’t allowed to run for class president, as per school policy, and that white students weren’t allowed to run for the school newspaper.
Seems to be a lot less about freedom and a lot more “be a conservative/crazy Roman Catholic or gtfo!!” mentality to me…but what do I know, I only had to pay (in more ways then one) for the American citizenship others are born with, clearly I’m doing it wrong
You ‘r kiding! you cant believe what you say, while 100% of any the comedy media on USA already mocked God or religious people at some point, and then these same shows also make fun at races (except black)…so can you really blame Catholic for any discrimination while you and others discriminate and hate with all your forces in any direction??
I’ll admit I don’t live in the U.S. but the situation you’re describing sounds really redneck. Over here in Canada we mostly have american television stations and God seems to be mocked frequently and atheism is quite prominent. If anything Christian viewpoints are in the minority in your media and so I would assume that your situation is not true for the entire nation.
It saddens me that you live in such conditions and you have my sympathy. Immigration is difficult anywhere but ignorance has never made it easier.
This all being said, if we go back to the original point I would bet that none of the individuals you describe shoving their religious and political viewpoints down their throat describe themselves as “Sorta Catholic”. Though admittedly I could be wrong, as the standards for such measurements can differ from place to place. Perhaps that phrase doesn’t mean the same thing there as it does here.
There’s a disconnect in America between the media and the population. While things are becoming more secular in the cities, rural areas tend to be trying to become more religious to offset it. nihil1234, I understand where you’re coming from, because I live in the Southern United States, and even being born here, I feel like an outsider, like i should have been born in some other country. I, like you, feel people always trying to push their religions down my throat. I have nothing against spirituality, and spiritual belief, but I think organized religion is a cancer that needs to be excised. Not the people, or their personal beliefs, but the church itself.
@Tetsukalian I agree with you I am one of those people who believes in faith but not religion it might have been good once before but now it like the government has become corrupted
“Clearly you and I are living in different versions of the US, because in mine God is shoved down everyones throats, muslims are hated on, kids are taught that God put fossils in the ground to tempt us, that the world is no older then 10 or so thousand years, all in public schools no less!!
This has not been my experience. I live in Oklahoma. Now, before you think ‘how did you get a computer in your tepee,’ my graduating class was over 500 strong, and we’re one of three high schools, soon to be four, in the area. I passed by at least four different churches on my way to middle school. But, if anything, Christianity was underplayed by school staff. In world history, our teacher basically said, “and the next few pages are about Judaism and Christianity, if you haven’t learned about that yet, you can spend your own time on it.” My biology teacher told us that she believed in creationism, but since it was school hours, she couldn’t tell us more than that and then plunged headlong into teaching the theory of evolution.
I say all this because Oklahoma is considered part of the “Bible Belt” and that at least 60% of our 3.6 million people are conservative sticks-in-the-mud. Then again, maybe my hometown is like a punched eyelet in the belt leather… but then how would I explain the Christian college a few blocks from my house…
“Oh, and lets not forget the 1 public school (in Michigan if memory serves) where black students were told they weren’t allowed to run for class president, as per school policy, and that white students weren’t allowed to run for the school newspaper.”
Someone be twisting the facts to their advantage. The (misguided) idea was that each semester the race of the student president had to switch – so both blacks and whites could hold office. It was an old rule, and they got rid of it when the actually had students who said, “We do not need rules to keep us from being racist anymore.”
ah, the jealous G-D. But Giz’ do you know what G-D is jealous of? eh, you do not? well then, listen – G-D is jealous only when the people who profess to believe in and love Him worship any (thing, idea, person, action) that is not Him. As for vengeance, G-D is patient, very patient. He often waits 7 generations (but not always) before punishing a sin; waiting that long is merciful (gives sinner(s) the opportunity to confess their sin(s) & ask for forgiveness). this mercy is why some evil people appear to go unpunished and some good people have bad things happen to them.
“God is only jealous when people pay more attention to other things that aren’t him” isn’t really a flattering distinction. It makes him sound like a spoiled child.
If God created us, wouldn’t he therefore technically own us? If I had a kid, and he was a rebellious idiot who disobeyed and never saw himself owing his parents anything, when they created him, feed him, support him, protect him, etc., and he doesn’t even do small stuff to support the family like taking out the trash and washing some dishes, I think I’d be entitled to a lot more than jealousy.
Besides, think about this: the other religions that existed around the Israelites at that time supported practices like human (sometimes child) sacrifice. God saying “Don’t follow anything that isn’t my way” is to protect his followers from falling into beliefs and practices that would inevitably cause a lot of harm to them, beliefs and practices that, while not so blatantly damaging as sacrificing people, still exist today, and can harm you, and others, just as badly (drunkenness, as an example)
If I have a kid who is rebellious, I am not allowed to murder him. I hope you agree.
Not even a little.
Ummm, if God waits 7 generations before punishing a Sin, how is the great-great-great-great-great grandson of the guy who committed the sin expected to even know what happened? Much less be personally responsible for it? He’d be being punished for something that is in no possible way his fault.
Bible also says not to eat shellfish, women are property and that slavery is fine. I believe there’s even rules for carrying on relations with female servants.
Also says that pot is dandy in the eye of God.
Bottom line is, all Christians pick and choose what they agree with/take from the bible.
Have you checked that translation against the very original text? Just asking…
The authorities on the matter can’t decide which is the most authentic copy of a particular book.
Which, as far as my limited knowledge goes, the oldest copies of various books only go as far back as the 4th century AD. Of course, scholars debate when the originals were even written, so there are bigger issues IMO.
Good thing I choose to believe the bible is bullshit. But, to each their own.
Yep, you’re right. The God and Jesus of the Bible are both giant assholes, and we should all stop listening to what they have to say.
I sometimes wish were-gorillas were evolutionarily viable.
See, this is what I don’t get: The “jealous God” thing. Why would God be jealous? HOW could God be jealous? We’re so small compared to Him. Do you get jealous of amoebas?
Occasionally I get jealous of the whole asexual reproduction thing. I mean, by now, I’d have clones of myself doing all the boring stuff.
Except all your clones would want to make clones of themselves to do all the boring stuff…
Well you know we’ve all sinned. In the eyes of god all sin is sin and we all go to hell for it. Jesus doesn’t say that you should hate anyone or have any right to judge (He who is without sin cast the first stone)
as far as homosexuality being a sin will who cares, lotsa things will cause you to go to hell that you do every day. You aren’t kosher? that’s a sin. you shave your face? that’s a sin. you wear fabric made of a blend? that’s a sin. you paint a picture? that’s a sin.
so stop caring about gay folk!
Man, I hate to fuel a debate that pretty much has no end, but as a gay Christian I enjoyed these. Hopefully they’ll be just as interesting to others — especially people quoting the Leviticus verses:
Various Bible versus translated correctly by actual scholars of Hebrew and Ancient Greek
What the Bible Says — and Doesn’t Say — About Homosexuality
Hopefully the links work; I’ve never posted one here before.
P.S.: David, if you read this, is there any way I can change my avatar from male to female?
Go down to the Reply section and choose “Get a Gravatar” and follow the directions. You can choose whatever-the-hell you want for an Avatar. That’s how I have this one.
Yeah, and Leviticus 18:21 (or 18:23… I can’t accurately remember) says “You shall not lie with an animal as one lies with a female; it is a confusion.”
Like, if you’re banging a dude, it’s frikkin’ evil, but if you’re plowing a sheep? you just thought it was a squat, woolly woman on all fours.
Also, side note, a gay man doesn’t lie with a man as he lies with a woman. Totally different lying. This seems only to condemn bisexuality.
A little known (or referenced) fact is that the first half of Jesus’ sermons go “Screw the Bible, do what’s RIGHT and MORALLY JUST”
Well, he starts by talking about gouging out your eyes when you look lustfully at women, but y’know, eventually he gets to “turn the other cheek”
As David Cross would say, “the Bible was written by people that are even dumber than our dumbest people on this Earth. They thought the Earth was flat and the Sun revolved around it.” It’s got some great intentions, but c’mon, it’s like the things you believed real when you were 5. Now you’re 25 and you know things aren’t the same. People evolve (well, unless you believe they don’t) so a book that was written 1500 years ago and then rewritten so many times it’d make you astonished, you have to believe if it was written now, it’d be a completely different book. It’d had words like “totally” and “shizzle” in it.
words change from generation to generation and language to language but G-D’s Word means the same no matter what their form it is in. — on a side note people of any era can believe the world is flat. and all seafarers know our planet is a globe but try to convince someone who has never seen a ship disappear from sight at the horizon and that person will think you are insane. heh, even the ancient Grecian astronomers knew our planet is a globe (and not the center of the universe) – they used mathematics to prove it. [[ i believe the world is bumpy ]]
But which of this generation’s words match what he really meant?
Saying that the ancient Grecians “knew” that the Earth circled the Sun is a bit of a misnomer. There was ONE guy that came up with that theory and actually told somebody about it. I believe that was Aristarchus, but I could be wrong and am almost definately spelling it wrong. It was not proven mathematically at that time.
The fact that the Earth was round was discovered in ancient Greece, and was proven mathematically, but it wasn’t very widely accepted.
Why has nobody commented on the omniscient God asking about something because his Google researches have proven inconclusive? That was comedy ultra-gold.
I didn’t notice it, or if I did I forgot but you are right. Also God’s speech here really reminds me of T-rex from dinosaur comics for some reason.
Pretty much what everyone interprets as anti-homosexuality passages in the Bible are actually recommendations on how to treat your slaves, which is, you know, totally relevant. It’s not “don’t have gay sex,” it’s “don’t rape your slaves.” Homosexuality was tolerated in ancient times, and incredibly common.
I think that since the gender roles are fusing and there’s less “male world” and “female world” dichotomies, we’re actually having to figure out the whole sexuality issue. It’s natural that people turn to religious texts for help and guidance; it’s what they’re there for. But they also need to apply a historical perspective on the whole thing.
What would one define the original translations of a book so widely edited and reinterpreted as, exactly? For many people, their own generation’s Bible is the original translations.
The Bible is fallible because it was written by men. End of story.
Agreed! I found a bit of text on the interwebs, “If it’s the word of god, why do men do all the talking?” Many argue that it was interpreted by man, who was influenced by the will of god. We had no other way to explain the things around us, so we just said “GOD DID IT”. We had no other way, no technology to say otherwise!
But if it WAS influenced by God, and God said the entire Bible was truth, than we can correctly assume that the Bible is as God intended it to be.
And didn’t they find some scrolls that showed that it’s changed VERY little since the first few centuries B.C.?
The Bible is the Word of God because God says so.
Where does he say the Bible is the Word of God?
Yeah, that doesn’t really seem all that concrete somehow.
It’s a cyclical fallacy without any outside sources involved. First-degree cyclical fallacies are also called tautologies; they refer directly to themselves. (Ie, “this sentence is true”) Second-degrees refer back and forth. (“The following statement is true. the previous statement is true”) Further degrees are named by how many steps are in the cycle. The one you said is a second-degree cycle. Now, the willingness of millions to have faith in its truth doesn’t make it any more right, but it means it should be given some consideration.
The problem with this premise is that it denies free will. If the translators of the bible have free will, then they can choose to translate it incorrectly according to their biases. This has definitely happened in more than one case. The most favored old stand by, the King James Version, was deliberately translated to reflect the structure of the Church of England, and the King as head of the church.
This is especially relevant to this discussion, as the most likely translation of many of the words now translated as “homosexuality” is actually “male prostitute” except in one instance where the word occurs nowhere else in the lexicon, and thus can’t be translated.
Well, Topanga dated Cory IRL, and also Lance Bass. But Lance ended up being gay so maybe that rubbed off on her?
thank you after all the bible crazyness ild thought ild never find out if she was or not
I used to be “sorta Catholic” before I realized that’s just being offensive to real Catholics. I’ve since rejected all organized religions since every one of them condemns at least half the world to an eternity of torture for no more reason than using the wrong name when talking to or about god.
I personally believe it doesn’t matter whether someone or another is homosexual or doesn’t even believe in god. All that matters is that if the person truly does good then they deserve to get into heaven. And the matter on the Bible. Today it is a modern days interpretation of earlier man’s interpretation of god’s word. I think SMBC does a comic where Jesus tells some one and on through the line it goes finally ending with modern day people saying. “Hear you clear. God hates gays.” with Jesus in the background like what the heck.I just think the bible has been spewed out and rearranged to suit mans fancy. Sorry I think i was just babbling near the end I hope you get some message out of it.
I blame King James!
Just kidding, I haven’t read that version…
I like that! Everything can be Lebron’s fault!
My 2 cents!
… 14. Do not argue with trolls – it means they win.
And don’t pretend like you aren’t trolling. Take a look again. This fits rather well with the definition of the Classic Forum Troll, and the heat at the end of this page is damaging my CPU. The horse is dead. Period.
How about we stop the religious discussion to see the fact that GOD USES GOOGLE?????
You do realise that the only reason the ancient Israelites didn’t condemn lesbianism was because at the time it was assumed that women had no interest in sex, right? Had it been common knowledge that women do desire and enjoy sex, and sometimes have it with each other, then they would have banned that shit quick smart.
I thought it was because women are property, and thus can’t degrade themselves, whereas a man diddling another dude is a man doing unto another man like they do unto the women/property, which is just not proper for not-property to do!
I am pretty sure that Biblical-era folks were well aware that ladies liked the sex. I mean, Song of Solomon, dude. Song of Solomon.
Aw man someone already made the comment I wanted to make… AND IT WAS ME. But yeah God totally sounds like T-Rex from Dinosaur Comics. But having read this archive again to this point I have NO evidence that Willis has ever read Dinosaur comics or draws any inspiration from them.
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